Neversummer 4 Forum Archive

These are general thoughts about items balance.
I find sad that nearly all fighter are now Dex one with rapier/kukri.

I personnaly think that AC on robe should be lower than plate. Dex fighter would still have a better AC but not to the point making STR fighter useless.
Exemple :
NS plates +10
NS robes +6

My next concern is about weapon. It is nowadays pointless to use longsword or [censored]. This could be cool to give these average crit range, low crit multiplier some love.

Lets put weapon into three category :
Category one : average crit range (19-20) / low crit multiplier (longsword, shortsword, [censored] sword etc)

Category two : high crit range (18-20) / low crit multiplier (rapier, kukri, scimitar etc)

Categry three : low crit range (20) / high crit multiplier (great axe, scythe, handaxe etc)

We clearly see advantages of cat2 and 3 but none really for cat1. My point is, cat1 weapon should have the best non-critical dmg, lets call that brute force.

Following this, here is an example with fake weapon :
Uber long sword of free kill
-Keen
-2d10 slash
-2d10 Bludg
-2d10 pierc
-2d10 magical
-Improv critical dmg : 2d10

Uber rapier of free kill
-Keen
-2d8 slash
-2d8 Bludg
-2d8 pierc
-2d8 magical
-improv critical dmg : 2d8

Uber battleaxe of free kill
-Keen
-2d8 slash
-2d8 bludg
-2d8 pierc
-2d8 magical
-improv critical dmg : 2d12

And now come the exotic version that require a feat so that are obviously the best :
Uber [censored] sword of free kill
-Keen
-2d12 slash
-2d12 Bludg
-2d12 pierc
-2d12 magical
-Improv critical dmg : 2d10

Uber kukri of free kill
-Keen
-2d10 slash
-2d10 Bludg
-2d10 pierc
-2d10 magical
-improv critical dmg : 2d8

Uber dwarfaxe of free kill
-Keen
-2d10 slash
-2d10 bludg
-2d10 pierc
-2d10 magical
-improv critical dmg : 2d12

Non-crit dmg between a rapier and a [censored] sword will now be really significative.

And to finish i want to adress the "everyone got true sight (seing ?)" issue.
TS should be out of every PC stuff and replace by either detection of invisibilty either extra detection bonus. Plus, very few mob should have it and when a zone is not intend to be run, there should be a locked door or anything else requiring to clean the zone to be able to pass. Why ? cause give us Hips and rogue some love back plzzzzzzz ^_^

I'm playing since early days of NS3, this is the best action PW ever and it has grown really incredibly great, but some stuff still need to be balanced to enchance diversity.

I have two fighter hybrids I usually play on various servers, one a generic STR build (bard-RDD-fighter with [censored] sword) and the other a DEX (sometimes rogue-fighter-WM with kukris, or sometimes rogue-monk-fighter). I really enjoy the STR one and usually take it to 40 first, its a much more casual build and better at getting gear for the more delicate dex build that usually needs very specific items to work.

One advantage the STR fighter has (besides carrying something like 14,000 pounds of loot), is she doesn't have to worry so much about crit immune/damage reduction mobs as much. With about 50ab/75ac (85ac with imp exp) she is not the lest bit uber but fares passably well in most generic areas, and is a lot less complicated to plan out. Needs a lot fewer feats so I end up being able to boost up her HP a lot with epic toughness levels too.

I agree DEX has many advantages but its not open-and-shut. I find the STR build is a good one for newer or casual players, or ones who get confused about very complex builds that are worthless if one level is spent wrong.

I don't think there's an unbalance in weapons. Dex builds with weapon finesse get bonuses to AC and AB from dex. Strength builds don't get the AC bonus from str. That's why you see more dex builds.

I don't think there can ever be a balance. You'll always see builds gravitate towards what gives the best stats for the server.

Everyone has their cookie cutter builds. It's up to each person to decide that they want to be different and make a different build. The point is to make a build that's fun.

I do agree that maybe a change should be made to armor because of the dex AC thing. A big brute heavily armored should be able to fare just as well as a wily little punk that can move quick.

yes its all about environnement and actually in NS in late game, dex build has much more advantages than str. well i find for having played them both. Those 10more AC makes a whole difference and even if i deal more damage from strength bonus, if i cant survive long enough it becomes useless.

Thats why i was thinking of nerfing Dex fighter a tiny little bit ... really a bit =)

Say you've got two enemies, one's a quick little halfing and the other's a dwarf wearing full plate. Which do you think is going to be easier to hit?

Str builds *should* have significantly lower AC. They haven't focused on being quick and agile, so as a result they're going to get hit a lot. On the other hand, they're going to do more damage because they're strong.

If you had suggested putting more damage soak on the heavy armors, I might tend to agree with you. After all, a robe isn't going to protect you nearly as well when you do get hit. Then again, if you want to shrug off damage, that's what the dwarven defender class is for (as well as the epic damage reduction feats).

However, making a str build harder to hit doesn't make much sense.

Say you've got two enemies, one's a quick little halfing and the other's a dwarf wearing full plate. Which do you think is going to be easier to hit?

It is not how life is on NS. If NS was made to respect coherence, there should be a lot more to talk about. Point is in a world of PW action server tending to be hardcore, to create diversity some choice have to be done.

I didnt talk about soak, even if it makes sense, cause this would cause more trouble then anything else.

I'm just saying that nowadays, making a STR build is pointless and give no real benefits. (wearing hundreds loot, the few xtra physical dmg are not significant).

No one commenting on TS and Hips, weapon dmg ?

Wow you guys must not do very good strength builds, and after a point, that 10 extra AC becomes worthless since a mob has an AB higher than you can get your AC up to. In the later levels it is all about sucking up the damage... take for instance my strength build who I just ran through starfall, solo, to the 2nd level in the base. If it hadn't been my first time in there, I would probably have gotten farther, but I was just there to see what the talk was about. When the enemy only hits for a couple points of damage AC doesn't mean squat.

that 10 extra AC becomes worthless

this is not true cause higher AC means less crit landed on ur toons even if u get hit. And MadBovine, being dex build doesnt mean he cant be a soak build cause its 22con needed, not Str.

Dex DD >> Str DD cause 1+1 = 2 so far, so plz just dont assume we dont know how to build temp.

Step aside condescension when answering, ty.

Condescending responses are fun.

We'll go with random STR values . . . DEX gets 22 (10 base + 12 items), while STR gets 50 (not hard with a RDD and pumping up your STR as much as you can).

22 STR Kukri damage: 1d4 base + 6 STR = 7-10 typical; 14-20 on crit.

50 STR [censored] damage: 1d10 base + 20 STR = 21-30 typical; 42-60 on crit.

Assuming the two weapons have the same physical damage bonuses, the [censored] wielding STR guy consistently does 11-20 damage more on a normal hit and 22-40 more on a crit.

I'll throw in my two cents.

People tend to follow building patterns in waves: if there's a cool build out there, folks tend to notice and jump on the band wagon. For instance - risen lord shifters ~1 year ago, uber dwarven defenders ~6 months ago, and arcane archers most recently.

There has been a significant number of items added to the mod that should make building a strength toon much more appealing. It is not unheard of having a strength build reaching an AC of 80 if built properly. There's still plenty of variability left in building a good strength toon.

Dr_Fangorn wrote:It is not unheard of having a strength build reaching an AC of 80 if built properly. .

Yah, I am just a newb at builds but my strength character Zia on North (bard-RDD-fighter) has 73AC at the moment, that's all in giant/enslaved gear, no G1/NS gear, and about level 36 now. So I wouldn't doubt +7AC more from both epic gear & the final point or two from tumble. I take her to zones where I don't want to take my halfing kukri weaponmaster because I know mobs are crit immune or soak up so much of the base damage that it takes my dex build lots longer to do a kill. Also Zia has >800HP at 36 so far since I did not have to spend any feats on "dexie" things like finesse, amidex, 2-weapon fighting, improved two weapon, whirlwind & spring attack etc. So all those uneeded feats get to go into Great Strength and Epic Toughness ^_^ Dex builds take a lot more feats for sure.

I like my halfling dex build Pinkabu too and I am not arguing they have an advantage on NS; rather than "penalize" the attractive AB/AC of dexers though I think a better approach would be something that rewards heavy smackers over lightening fast crit dodgers who are more accurate & lithe.

I admit I am a newb and don't know squat about the NS endgame but it seems like 865hp, 61ab & 81ac (ran it to 40 thru Dojo to check) can't be THAT horrid even if dex builds can get even higher scores and >100ac.

ac over 100 is VERY rare, mid 90's is more common (after ie).... and yea that builds pretty good its loookin like... if u could squeeze imp ex into it it could be awesome....

It is not unheard of having a strength build reaching an AC of 80 if built properly.

Or even 90 on a handsome paladin

midnight08 wrote:ac over 100 is VERY rare, mid 90's is more common (after ie).... and yea that builds pretty good its loookin like... if u could squeeze imp ex into it it could be awesome....

I am not sure if you meant my RDD, Zia; she definately has improved expertise (that's a "must have" for me) which currently puts her up to 83ac at her current level 37 in giant/enslaved gear, and on Dojo server at 40 with "dream set" epicwear she's at 902 hp & 91ac w/imp exp, no buffs except gear.

my str fighter had a ac in the lower 90's without expertise..