Neversummer 4 Forum Archive

Hello everyone.

Shifters are strange characters, and building one can be an exercise in patience. This problem is compounded by the fact that the way a shifter build behaves on one server or offline may or may not reflect how the build works on the actual NS servers. Most of the questions surrounding shifter builds seem to center on the unarmed forms. So, I decided to do some testing.

Hopefully this will help some of you that are thinking about a shifter build. I set out to test several things.

1) Does Weapon Focus: Unarmed work for Golem/Dragon form?

2) Does Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed work for Golem/Dragon form?

3) Does Epic Prowess Work for Golem/Dragon form?

4) How to weapon AB bonuses affect Golem/Dragon form?


To test the feats, I simply made a note of my base AB and modified AB at a given level. At the next level, I would take the feat in question and look at base AB and modified AB again to see if the feat bonus was showing up in the modified AB number.

For weapon bonuses, I simply shifted with a variety of weapons/gaunlets and observed how my AB changed.

I was looking at actual AB in the combat window. The testing was done on East server the weekend of Feb. 11th. FWIW, the East server dragon scripts do seem different from the scripts on the other server I play on (MW). This could potentially change the way the weapon properties work.

Ok... on to the results, which will be short and sweet:

Weapon Focus: Unarmed -- This feat DOES NOT work.

Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed -- This feat DOES NOT work.

Epic Prowess -- This feat DOES work with all forms.

Weapon Merging:

One thing I learned that has been contributing to some confusion (ie - but my dragon has more AB than just my STR bonus says, those feats must be working!) is that the Dragon Form has a built in +6 AB modifier on it's claws. However, any modifier on a weapon/gauntlet that you have equipped will override the dragon hide +6 AB bonus, which can be confusing when you are comparing the form equipped versus un-equipped. So, yes, weapons merge, but the most benefit you will ever see from a weapon bonus is +2. At the moment, the scripts on east are merging all gear, meaning that you get a full +12 to STR.


The conclusion is that you can very easily predict what your final actual AB will be based on your Base AB. The dragon form has a base STR of 48, with +12 from gear, that is boosted to a STR of 60. The bonus from a STR of 60 is +25. With prowess and a triton, the total AB mod is:

25+8+1=34

So, take your final base AB, add 34, and that is what your final dragon AB will be, assuming shifter scripts continue to merge all gear. That means that a fighter/druid/shifter could potentially have an AB of 64... very respectable... however, his AC would suffer some and the damage output would still be low due to the relatively small critical range (19-20) and multiplier. More common will be the 'traditional' monk/druid/shifter with a very healthy AC and a max AB in the high 50s (or maybe 60).

I hope this is helpful.

EDIT: This should probably be under help and support rather than here... mods, can one of you help me??

You should also test, given time and desire, whether improved Critical: Unarmed works for those shifters as well. Also, I believe there has already been a post somewhere on here that addesses the feat interaction with shifters.
Check this:
http://www.nsrealm.com/forum/viewtopic. ... er+unarmed

Sorry... forgot to mention that one.

Yes, Improved Critical: Unarmed DOES work with the unarmed forms.

Sadly, keen weapons DO NOT work. So, the highest crit range you can have on an unarmed form is 19-20.


Funny you mention that old thread... Wildman42 is me

And, you can see in some of the replies, that there was some incorrect information.

The information posted above is current and correct, to the best of my knowledge.

actually i made a dragon from shifter on North and i had 3 more ab on the one i used wf and epic wf for so it does work. as for epic prowess, well it just adds 1 to ab reguardless of what you are or what weapon you use so that would stack as long as you have the feat.

Cryodog:

Could you double check that please?

Again, be sure to take into account the dragon form's built in +6 from claws.

Tell me what your base AB is and what your STR modifier is, please. Also, shift without any weapon equipped and attack an inanimate object (loot bag, door, etc) and tell me what your AB is in the combat window.

Thanks.

what about the melee weapons?

It's been a while since i've tested it, but, last time I checked the "armed " feats worked as expected.

Kinda off but on topic, but has there been any news on the crashing while shifted issue?

I just checked again about the weapon focus feats.

I don't have a shifter with dragon ATM, but I do have one that has Golem that also took the weapon focus:unarmed feat. His AB calculated properly w/o including the weapon focus bonus. In other words, it still appears that this feat DOES NOT work for shifters.

Cryodog, I suggest you check your actual AB in the combat window. I think you are misinterpreting something somewhere.

ill check today

I have tested the weapon focus feats with a shifter in golem form on East. Based on AB from the combat log, using first non-focused weapons then focused ones, I found:
1) weapon focus did not add to AB
2) attack/enchantment bonus from weapon does add to AB (compared to non-magical versions for that one)
3) crit range remains the same no matter what weapon equiped (was 20 only for me according to combat log against a variety of mid-high levels critters, 1-19 never critted)
4) crit multiplier remained x2 for fists and ALL weapons used, including scythe

Also of note:
5) wielding a two-handed weapon did not add to damage as would be expected if unshifted (1.5x str bonus)
6) in golem form I had 5 attacks each round no matter what, even while wielding 2 kamas and having improved two-weapon fighting feat

It appears that, at least for my toon in golem form, attacks are considered to be using the form's innate "claws" or what have you. Any weapon in one's hands seems to add its damage and attack bonus to the hits, but number of attacks, crit range and multiplier appear to be linked to the "claws".

My toon did not have weapon focus in unarmed combat or improved crit for the same, so perhaps others will find differences. Again this was based on the actual combat log and against a variety of different critters. Just some observations.

Knight

Thanks for the extra data Knight:

Just to clarify, your toon DID have weapon focus in the equipped weapon (ie - kama, scimitar, etc) but DID NOT have weapon focus in unarmed attacks?

If so, that is a test for one thing I forgot, and we can add that to our collective information about shifters: None of the weapon focus feats will add to the AB of unarmed forms.

Correct Forge, I have weapon focus in kama only. Above data is from equiping different weapons including kama, short sword, kukri, and scythe, then shifting and checking combat log for changes in AB. I also did separate checks unarmed using no gloves, then ogre gaunts and finally G1 gloves to see the effect on AB using the combat log. Again all using a golem as I don't have the dragon form.
While I have the floor, has anyone tested whether taking WM in short sword will improve the AB of a shifter in kobold form?

Knight

This would be a good time for me to clarify my earlier answer to DM White's question.


By "armed weapon focus feats work as expected" I meant that if you take weapon focus:short sword, you will see an increase in the AB of the kobold. However, even if you have a short sword equipped, the AB of other forms that do not use a short sword will not increase. However, as you have pointed out, if you have focus in an equipped weapon, it will not help you when you shift to any form that does not use that specific weapon (ie - short sword for kobold, scythe for Risen Lord, etc).

In addition, the WM bonuses WILL work with the forms (at least, a few months ago they did). Which is why I'm considering a scythe WM : )

Unarmed != Creature Weapon

Most creatures use their creature weapon (e.g. a claw, bite, or slam) for attacks. Forms that use manufactured weapons (e.g. a shortsword or scythe) are obviously using that weapon.