assassins

[MasterYoda]

I've partied with a couple of real good assassians who would hide ( not hips... this ability works just not in plain sight) then sneak up to the enimy ( again move silently works without having hips. ) and then death attack ftw since there standing there doing nothing.

the problem here isn't the freedom. its the fact people aren't using there build to the potential.

ur not going to go heads up with a mage with a druid and expect there to be even casting levels.

u can't have a barbarian go heads up with a monk and expect to get as many attacks or have as high ac and be able to avoid as many spells.

same token u can't expect a assassian to be able to walk up to anything and death attack anything. this brings us back to having one power class that everyone makes then they end up complaining when devs nerf it since everyne is using it now.

these threads about helping a class should in fact be helpful.

not targeting specific builds or classes to put up on a chopping block.

there isn't a single unbeatable build. likewise there isn't going to be a single build that will own every class.

go play have fun and if something needs to be ''fixed'' then suggest it without crippling another class.

this is turning into a witch hunt where people all complain about something they don't comprehend or can't beat.

GET BETTER BUILDS!

stop saying nerf this nerf that.... comeon people just go play

[Death Dealer1]

you can't beat any build with an assassin when everyone has access to freedom for extended periods of time. i like freedom, comes in handy when i have a cleric, i just don't like it when i have an assassin because you can buff with it then run where ever for how ever long and it will almost last most of the distance your covering.

assassins are by far the most looked down on class because they have 1 good skill that has the potential to kill anything on the server with just 1 hit. the problem comes when trying to get that 1 hit, it doesn't work to often. there aren't too many epic places you can go that do not have paralysis immune mobs and by the time you get there everyone has freedom that lasts longer than death attack will ever last.

[Nemesis Revised]

ppl should start making assassins so they would know what DD1 is talking bout.

[Death Dealer1]

i'm starting to like chase's +2 padded stick and paper armor idea

[Metis]

Like Yowne said we are trying to tweak assasins they are unique in having fantastic powers and weakness at the same time which makes it harder to make them the right strength, toss in biowares hard coded of a lot its not an easy task.

[Charles I]

From NWN manual

Death Attack: This special sneak attack has a chance of paralyzing the opponent. Death Attack damage increases with experience: +1d6 at 1st level, +2d6 at 3rd level, +3d6 at 5th level, +4d6 at 7th level and +5d6 at 9th level. Improves by +1d6 every two levels after 9th.

No mention of killing an opponent. I think people may be focusing too much on the name of the attack and not what it is intended to do, paralyze. Reccomended time for duration 1 round + 1 round per assassin lvl/10. Only assassin levels should be considered for duration. So a person with 20 assassin levels would paralyze an opponent for 3 rounds. A person with only 1 assassin level should not be able to paralyze an opponent for 5 rounds getting in 16-20 free sneak attacks. I think the current DC is good, which i believe is 10+Assn lvl+Int modifier.

I think the idea of a poison token similar to the gas bomb token for AO is good. Duration and DC should both be related to assassin levels only.

As far as Freedom goes. Everything has a counter to it and Freedom is the counter to paralysis. If this is taken away, will it be replaced by something else? If you shorten the duration, people will just rest more often.

And DD1, you know you do have the option to NOT attack, but we know you can't help yourself.

[P. Fricebottle]

1 round + 1 round per assassin lvl/10.

Hm....seems like an awfully short duration, but its not as bad as standing there paralyzed for what seems an eternity.

[MLoki]

I haven't started a thread on Terrifying Rage not being able to paralyze PCs with Freedom. Just because I play one and find some issues in the ability doesn't mean I need to [censored] and complain about it. So far I think I am the only one with an Epic Barb using the ability, it is a unique ability to the Barbarian and most planar mobs are immune to it for one reason or another. Mind Immunity, Fear Immunity, Paralysis Immunity all stop it but it's not something that I think is broken or unfair just because there is a way around it. Freedom stops Paralysis, so don't try to Death Attack people with the little green circle under thier feet. That stops you from using the ability on 3 out of the 10 classes that can cast it. Ok so some of thier friends might have freedom too. Your an Assassin be patient, everybody has to rest sometime and assassins do thier best work at night. The chart Perigrine showed us earlier specifically states that some level of planning is required (I know because I used to play assassins way back when). It's not supposed to be used as a spur of the moment kind of thing. Sneak up, Death Attack, WIN!!!

MLoki

[Cthulhu Drega]

quite right loki an assassin takes his time even witha sd ill often follow a potental target for a screen or two just to get the perfect time to strike ( usaly when they rest lol )

[Death Dealer1]

so how far does an assassin have to follow someone before they attack them? i'm pretty sure i can cast freedom in avendell and walk to earth plane without losing it....thats not lying in wait as an assassin does, thats chasing someone as a fighter would do.

[Nemesis Revised]

prestige classes like bg, cot, shifter have been modded to get up par with other classes. lets hope assassin gets modded too

[Sparky]

Loki, you're right, Terrifying Rage can be countered by many means, but it is also a feat, not the major focus of a class, which Death Attack is.

And Charles I, the reason people talk about Death Attack killing people is that the Assassin class in Pen and Paper, of which the Bioware abomination is based on, has the ability to Kill OR Paralyze people with their Death Attack. I suspect Bioware was too lazy to code the proper use of Death Attack from Pen and Paper, which requires 3 rounds of concentration on the unsuspecting target before you can strike with Death Attack. So, we get this abmonination instead. And, to be fair, if someone had Freedom of Movement in Pen and Paper active, and the Assassin chose to Paralyze the target instead of killing them, the Paralyze would fail as the spell grants immunity to Paralysis.

Paralysis in DnD means the character has no control over their body, but their mental faculties are still working.

A Stun in DnD basically means, for whatever reason, the character's mind was assaulted in such a way that they while their body still works, their mind has been shut down for the duration of the ability/spell.

This can serve to explain why some mobs are inexplicably immune to certain spells, as most spells were made to work specifically with Humanoid minds, and not say, giants mind, or insectoid mind, or even undead minds.

And what the hey, here's an exerpt from an in depth report I wrote on the state of Assassin's in NS4. Feel free to rip it apart. Enjoy.

Now that you see the limitations of Death Attack, hopefully you'll understand why Yonwe and I have been pushing for Assassin changes for the last few months.

"Now, let’s review Assassin and their viability on our server.
Assassin gains Death Attack at the same rate as a Rogue gains sneak attack, along with minor spellcasting (Darkness, Invisibility + (Imp), Uncanny Dodge, Saves versus Poison and Poison Usage. Poison Usage is not implemented yet here.

Assassin’s have no realistic way of boosting their Stealth, as both Druid/Ranger are unavailable to Shadow Legion. Bard is unrealistic, as to have a Bard Song that boosts an Assassin’s Stealth Skills significantly will yield an incredibly weak Death Attack Save. A Bard would be better off taking rogue in that case. This leaves a Trickery Domain Cleric, and the hopes that you have a decent Charisma. Even then you will have to take many levels in Cleric to yield a decent Stealth bonus which will once again give a weak Death Attack save.

So we’ve established that an Assassin will most likely have an “Average” Stealth as I’ve noted above for “Common Shadowdancers”. Let’s say you’ve just become an epic Assassin and want to go own some people with your Death Attack.

You spot a:
Paladin: Death Attack fails; Paladin has Freedom of Movement and super saves.
Ranger: Death Attack fails, Ranger has Freedom of Movement.
Druid: Death Attack fails; Druid has Freedom of Movement, and forms immune to sneak attack.
Cleric: Death Attack fails, Cleric has Freedom of Movement.
Wiz/Sorc: Dragon Knight Summon notices you before you can get close, caster moves in direction opposite his summon. If you can get close to him, you have a chance. I hope he doesn’t have a Wail of the Banshee waiting for you.
Barbarian: If he’s Constitution focused, he’ll make the saves.
Fighter: Depending on the focus and feat choices, there is a good chance he’ll make the saves.
Rogue: You’ll totally bag him, if he’d not stealthed hunting you.
Bard: He’s a king of Stealth Detection, but we’ll assume you got him and killed him. Next time you see him he’s got Freedom of Movement on from either Armor/UMD rods.
Monk: You’ll probably get a monk, I’ve heard they can be bugged to be immune to paralysis, but I cannot confirm this.
Champion of Torm: Death Attack fails due to super saves.
Red Dragon Disciple: Death Attack fails, Immune.
Pale Master: You hate your ally, too bad he’s immune to Death Attack and Paralysis.
Harper Scout: You got him, congratulations, now they’re extinct.
Weapon Master: Weak Fort Saves, but access to spot, so if you get the jump you win, otherwise he will spot you.
Arcane Archer: Weak saves, but Elf always in detect mode (Unless Half-Elf). Once again, if you get the jump with your Average Stealth, you’ll win.
Blackguard: Death Attack fails, due to enhanced saves.
Dwarven Defender: Death Attack fails, Dwarven Defender’s tend to focus on high Constitutions with in turns yields high Fort Saves.
Shifter: Death Attack Fails. Shifters have many forms with Original True Sight, and they have many Sneak Attack/Paralysis immune forms.

So, as you can see, an Assassin’s life isn’t easy, but who said it should be? Let’s say you manage to paralyze someone. When this happens, people call in the Calvary, and the Calvary will have plenty of Freedom or Remove Paralysis to go around. I’ve seen it happen plenty of times.

Ok, so PvP isn’t your thing, you’ve just finished waltzing through the Gnolls and are looking to own the Epic monsters of the world. Let us examine your options.

Merfolk: In the beginning areas, there are hidden mobs with plenty of hurt. In the city, one Merfolk Imperial and you’re dead, but, they can all be paralyzed to by knowledge.
Frozen Crypt: Undead immune to Death Attack and Paralysis.
Ice Giants: Immune to paralysis.
Amazons: Not immune to paralysis, but Fort saves in the high 30’s, you will have a hard time nailing the Amazons with Death attack until you are well into your 30’s character level wise.
Elemental Planes: Anything with Elemental subtype Immune to Death Attack and Paralysis.
Dwarf Home: I believe immune to Paralysis (correct me if I’m wrong), and Fort saves comparable to that off Amazons.
Shadow Plane: Lots of Immune Undead. Shadow Renders have excellent saves, Shadar Kai hide better than you. I’m not sure on the status of Shadow Mastiffs.

As you can see, Assassin Death Attack is not as powerful as you would initially believe.

Edit: Assassins also cast their "Feats (spells)" (Invis(Imp),Darkness) at a caster level of Zero.(Dispel DC of 11)"

In the above excerpt, my suggestions for fixing these problems have been left out.

[Nemesis Revised]

wow awesome analysis sparky. i agree in what you say that almost all classes can easily detect or nail an assassin. and true, on pen and paper, assassins really can bypass freedom...

and try putting more bard or cleric or fighter or whatever class to boost its ab or hide/ms abilities and it's death attack will suffer.

wish they can be given something that can equal boosts on other prestige classes. good example would be the shifter, since the illithid blast was modded, perhaps the death attack too? good job on that one btw

[Death Dealer1]

i just did the classic ambush scenario of a rogue. caught a person fighting a giant and decided to use my enhanced sneak attacks to do a little damage. this cleric/fighter was 1 lvl higher than me and i only shot twice, he hit me 3 times and i died.

so....woe for the assassin? or should i just stand around until someon happens to rest right next to me....like that will happen as they can't rest next to you even if they don't know your there.

[mgrjebbo]

well there is something that should be fixed. for DD1's sake here i belive that the resting near enemys ban should be removed. its your own fault if you rest near a badie and get creamed while your asleep. i think this would add wonderful flavor to all sneak classes.