Seriously guys, quit chugging in pvp.

[mining]

For the record, CoT's, shifters, and PDKs ARE ridiculously overpowered.

Except our best builds aren't even CoTs, shifters are by and large outclassed by rogue/fighter/WMs. If you don't believe me on that, here's the statblock:

The Kobold's stats:
666 HP
20 str mod
77 AC
58 AB indoors, 60 outdoors.
+2 dex, con.
4 attacks a round.
Saves on both of them will be the same/close enough to not matter.
Discipline will be very close, Weapon Master will have enough, though.

The Weapon Master's stats:
736 HP.
4 str mod.
75 AC
64 AB
5 attacks a round
+2 dex, con, int.
larger crit range.

Overall, Thottbot says:

Self buffed, damagewise, counting AB and attacks a round, and crits:

Kobold > WM until 66 AC, albeit not by much.

Party buffed:

WM >>> Kobold, by rather a lot.

And PDKs, well, I'm sure you all know that you get 2 classes that we don't, and you also get some handy spells casted by a wisdom based class that remove a certain negative effect that has a save which is boosted by wisdom.

On topic, though, Burra's post is dead on.

50 max resistance damage plus a certain amount of immunity i would guesstimate around maybe 70-80 dr on a lvl 40 toon....

30 basic DR from EDR + DWD + 20 DR from Armor/Shield, + 25% DI from armor/shield [up to 50%], +30% DI to everything from DWD itself... At 55-80% DI, 50/- DR, and elemental immunity insofar as weaponry is concerned, with 1s or 2s possible from, say, Glimmer Kamas, rolling well on a crit, etc... I mean, a Scythe will, at most, crit for about 400 damage. Say 55% DI, so 220 flat ignored, then another 50 from armor/shield, for 170 damage. Scyther will, assuming a hit on every flurry, crit ~ once a round. On a non crit, they'll do about 80 flat damage - so no damage whatsoever. Or, in other words, a DWD can totally nullify a scythers damage by putting down a heal kit every round.

[Daltian]

Dex pally DWD:
Base 10 AC + 6 Armor + 5 deflect + 5 nat + 9 shield + 6 dodge + 15 dex + 10 div shield + 10 imp expertise = 76 ac (80 with +4 song) with a bunch of DI/DR (30 DWD gets a bonus DI from all physical). With robes and Shield DR. Can also get EDR if you can eek out enough con for it. Granted the ab and damage is next to useless, but that's not the point of this build. Oh yeah, and base DWD saves are fort & will + pally saves with +10 chr to bonus.

... just sayin'

I wouldnt go so far as to say useless...
10(divine might) +2d6(hlysword vs evil) +5(divine favour) +3(prayer) just from self buffs... thats a whole lot more then most
30 base bab + 15 dex +3 Dfavour +3 prayer +8(weapon) +4feats = 63 selfbuffed ....67 with bardsong. thats none to shabby i must say


edit* of forgot about blindspeed too* another 2ac 1ab

Dwd's are superlame when chugging (except in few cases when they attacked one vs 25, that was hilarious and lots of fun) but your assumption on dwd builds are all based on best case scenarios. You can't assume same dwd has EDR3, epic energy resistances, super high HP and enough prayers and divine favors to last him in combat. I don't know what build you believe they are using but they have 9 pally (probably even less levels) and they will have 1 or 2 super short prayers to cast that are no better then any prayer potion out there. Divine favors wont be many too. If they go blinding speed, EDR3/EER way they sure wont be able to get that many epic feats except epic WF/armor skin. Assuming they now also need to be unstunable they will need fort save of 60+ so feats for that needed too even when they have divine grace from paladin. Same build also needs 21 CON, 25 DEX, 13 STR, 18 CHA, 14 WIZ and 13 INT (for imp. expertize you assumed it had).

Pre epic feat list demand in build you assume on is scary too, weapon finesse, power atack, divine power, divine might, weapon focus, improved crit, blind fight, expertize, improved expertize, toughness and dodge are quite hard to fit in pre epic.

I don't want to defend dwd chuggers. I hate when people chug, be it dwd or any other class but we have a practice of demonizing a class by thinking of what one can build from it and assuming one build can have all best traits of all builds that single class can have.
So please, leave DwD's alone, DwD is not a problem, its chugging that we want solved.

[Daltian]

And about shifters, please stop beating the dead horse. No one uses them in PvP anymore. Shifters are much worse at the moment then what Minings data say. Simple fact of not being able to use any items, being helpless against bigsby and inability to change shields makes them really bad in PvP.
There is no need to post any data or arguments. All you need to do is look around and find one PvPing. And by PvPing I don't mean being hunted down. There just aren't any .

[mining]

xXenox: Of course they're worse in terms of flat other stuff. I'm saying they're worse than the generic melee build, in the areas where it was said they were better: Damage and HP. Of course AC is a *touch* more, but AB is twice as much less as AB is more, so compare with using expertise.

Also, others, yes. DWD builds are just the best chuggers, and the uber builds you are stating just aren't going to happen.

They can definitely get some AB, but screw using divine shield for AC, just build it more like a str/con hybrid barbarian. Its going to be a worse tank, but it will be able to hit the broad side of a dragon.

[Bargeld]

All i can say is 'wow'. I made a comment in 75% font font size, and I wasn't even the first to say it. I really don't wanna de-rail this topic any further, since it should be about chugging, not necessarrily DWD. I hate PvP chugging just as much as the rest of you.

With that said, a shifter that decides to chug full heals as golem or dragon, or other forms would be just as bad as a DWD. A PM as well. Or a fighter that kits. Or a barb that kits. Some may be a little more or less effective than the others, but it's not about the effectiveness of the kits or the strengths and weaknesses of a build, it's about the players that decide to do it dishonorably in PVP. For them it's about not losing. They may not win, but by healing, they are attempting to not lose. Can you script a fix for that?

I was thinking about it last night, and really what it comes down to is that NS4 is an awesomely vast and balanced server. Is it perfectly balanced? No. There are inherent inbalances in classes and factions that only apply to very specific situations. For the most part, they have been fixed as best as they can, but I'm sure there may be a few that can still be addressed or tweaked. In my time here, I've realized that, in MOST cases, it was the wrong toon to use in that situation, and so you learn from it and pick a better toon for the matchup next time. Sometimes there may be not better toon that you have available, but them's the breaks. Just because TNC doesn't get sorc IGM cannons makes these DWDs a tough battle no matter what you choose. Along the same line, when I go to fight a smiting pally with an SL toon, I don't have much of a chance either, I have very limited choices which get negated by simple things such as party haste. Going up against 62 DC fear aura? There's only a few builds to choose from that can make that save on their own, and then you gotta narrow it down to who can actually kill the PDK. Not everything is easy to kill and a chugging DWD is one of them, but there ARE some specific counters to them, and the fact is that your faction may not have many of those, if any.

[burrahobbit]

But oh so true 8(

For the record, CoT's, shifters, and PDKs ARE ridiculously overpowered.

I like beating dead horses. Bargeld loves to play his 300 hp assasin that has a will save somewhere in the neighborhood of 12. I imagine, from his perspective that they are overpowered.

Bargeld, I would like to make you an honorary member of FoN for a month so you can play some of these "overpowered" classes and in so doing, gain a better understanding of how to play the game. After playing with us for awhile, you may even learn to work as a team and find out that we tend to make things look overpowered because of how amazing we are in general. My mommy also tells me that I am the best looking kid in school. Its crazy right? We wake in the morning and piss excellence in FoN. We win because we have better players, not builds. I play mostly out of MA these days, I've pvp'd a ton against TNC. MA/SL losses because of a lack of tactics, plain and simple.

I think I'm starting to get this condescending thing down

[Daltian]

We love you burra for being so awesome!

[Twiggy]

On a non crit, they'll do about 80 flat damage - so no damage whatsoever. Or, in other words, a DWD can totally nullify a scythers damage by putting down a heal kit every round.

that's pretty damn good if you ask me. if i got hit 80 every hit i would be screaming to mommy. plus if you use a kit your not swinging and therefore still being hit. it takes a turn to use it and you can get hit up to three times a turn right? or maybe just two...whatever either way, if you keep damaging them they will keep healing and eventually run out of kits and die. this is assuming that dwd has that much DI/DR and he isn't a coward and runs.

dwd's are fine, chugging should be ruled outlawed during battles. end of story.

or how bout we just give everyone plain weapons and armor and remove all heal pots and rd scrolls and see who is left standing? winner can be callled the king of noobs.

oh and Burra your posts are hilarious

[Daltian]

But we need our rd scrolls. Nothing beats running around Molech room as last survivor hoping to manage to use RD scroll and raise a cleric before you die. Who ever invented rd scrolls has heart black as coal and I applaud him for it!

[OpalimTeGolim]

We wake in the morning and piss excellence in FoN. We win because we have better players, not builds.

I think we should have an event soon to clarify claims like this, and not during a relic event, for in the relic event we don't have group of the same sizes. I propose faction (or guild) fights. Several rounds of 3 vs 4, 4 vs 4 or 5 vs 5 fights. We don't even need a DM to organize it, but it would be nice if one is willing.

*Back to the topic*

[cRaZy8or5e]

I really don't wanna de-rail this topic any further, since it should be about chugging, not necessarrily DWD. I hate PvP chugging just as much as the rest of you.

This whole topic is about pvp chugging because DwD's are so good at it. Otherwise I don't think people would have brought it up. otoh, NC/TC should build some big hittin' dire mace/dbl axe wm's with epic energy resist fire. Probably wouldn't be as much of an issue after that.

Let the building of counters continue ad nauseum until we forget our old builds and build the old anew.

Going up against 62 DC fear aura? There's only a few builds to choose from that can make that save on their own, and then you gotta narrow it down to who can actually kill the PDK.

62 DC fear aura's are impossible for "legal" player built PDK's. I bet Cheese Whiz could get a 62 DC fear aura though .

[Bargeld]

oops, meant 52

[Tsavong]

Ah the good old never ending chugging rants.

They are never going to go away just as people chugging are not going to go away they will chugg when you are killing them if you out number them or if they out number you 4 to 1 and people will always get annoyed.

Merry Christmas everyone I am going to chug a nice beer!


http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/5896/relicwar3.jpg
http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/8492/zersei.jpg
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/9431/schugg.jpg

[burrahobbit]

We wake in the morning and piss excellence in FoN. We win because we have better players, not builds.

I think we should have an event soon to clarify claims like this, and not during a relic event, for in the relic event we don't have group of the same sizes. I propose faction (or guild) fights. Several rounds of 3 vs 4, 4 vs 4 or 5 vs 5 fights. We don't even need a DM to organize it, but it would be nice if one is willing.

*Back to the topic*

You need an event to clarify this? Do you play on this server? To make it fair we should probably just do burrahobbit vs. PWnD. burrahobbit vs. DD, burrahobbit vs. HNS. Now that I am thinking about this rationally, its not so much that FoN has better players, its basically just me. Next Saturday I would like to fight the entire server at once, naked.

**Back to topic**

[Tsavong]

I would like to fight the entire server at once, naked.

You call your self a man I have all ready done that naked!