Resting System Discussion

[Thanos]

1.If you want to help limit mages and why don't you make all mages/sorc specialize. They would have to make a hard choice on which area they would lose. That would limit some of the buffs they could use and other spells. It would also give them a rock paper sissors feel.

2.Or you could make mages/sorc gain new spell levels every 3 levels instead 2. When they hit level 20 they could use 7 level spells.

They only problem with this is some spells would need to be buffed up. Like the summons. 7th level summons going to be pretty useless fighting 20th level mobs.

3. Remove the sorcerer class or nerf it. This class is by far the most powerfull. You can select the best pvp spells and cast them each so many times a battle where a normal wizard has his spells already predetermined. Which limits the wizard in pvp combat. Sorcerors can replace buffs quickly where a mage would have to have used those slots already.

[JesterOI]

Damn dude, you really hate mages don't you?

This thread is about finding a reasonable solution to address the exploitation of rest to be able to cast more than the alotted spells a spell user has per game day... Not make mages useless as your suggestions suggest...

[Thanos]

Damn dude, you really hate mages don't you?

This thread is about finding a reasonable solution to address the exploitation of rest to be able to cast more than the alotted spells a spell user has per game day... Not make mages useless as your suggestions suggest...

Just tossing some suggestion. Don't get all upset . Im not saying take all of them . I don't think 1 and 3 would hurt the game much. I never really liked sorc class. That class can basically be ready for any situation. Which makes it very powerfull. How much would the game be hurt by losing it? Not as bad as resting every 15 mins would do to players fun.

Here is another solution

Reduce the damage potential of mages over time. Instead of having a fire ball do 1d6 damage per level have them do 1d3 damage but they can cast the fireball 2 times..

[JesterOI]

That reduced damage thing is an idea....

But I still like my spell slot recharge time idea better

[Gil-Este]

both the reduced damage idea and the spell slot idea are potentially viable as long as the reduction isn't too severe and the time limits aren't very long at all. on the reduced damage thing instead of 1d3 but casting two it would be better just to increase the casting time.

NOTE: i personally think that mages are decently fine as is and people should think of at least quasi creative ways to work around their own weaknesses. but for those who want change, the above is what i think of your suggestions.

[garrykasparov]

I hate to rain on everyone's parade with regards to changing resists on lighter items, but once people start hitting epic levels they will simply take the auto-still spell feat 3 times and run around wearing heavy armor and shields (fun! fun!). Since most other epic mage feats are worthless with the exception of epic penetration and auto-quicken (BTW -- If you think things are bad now with the balance, wait until you get morded and WoB in the same round), that really isn't even much of a sacrifice. Should people truly feel the classes are unbalanced, I think that an attempt should be made to either weaken the strength of magic, or improve potential resistance to it.

[Revenge]

Better maths using only averages:

Billy the fighter:
lvl 11, 20 str, 14 dex
using longsword +1d8 slashing, bracers +4 str, armor 10% fire resist, shield 10% fire resist, cloak +2 fire save
This gives Billy:
attack bonus: +18/+13/+8
damage: 2d8 +7
reflex save vs fireball: 7 (Fighter low save + dex mod + item mod = 3 + 2 + 2)
Damage immunity: Fire 20%

Fred the wizard:
lvl 11, 20 int
using robes AC 0 +3 armor 20% slash resist, boots +2 dodge, cloak +2 deflect, barkskin +5 natural, mage armor +1 shield, misc item +4 int
This gives Fred:
AC: 23
Damage immunity: Slashing 20%
Empowered fireball: damage 11d6 x1.5 -- DC 22 (10 + spell lvl + attribute mod = 10 + 5 + 7)

Billy attacks
Billy attacks Fred 3 times in 1 round, he has to roll a 5 to hit the first time, a 10 to hit the second and a 15 to hit the third. On average, he will hit 1.5 times per round. (Chances to hit: 3 hits=10% 2 hits=40% 1 hit=40% 0 hits=10%).

His longsword has a threat range of 19-20 (x2), so he will get a critical 1% of the time (He has to roll 19 or 20 twice in a row), at double damage, which adds an average of 1% more damage per hit. At 1.5 hits per round, it's an extra 1.5% averaged damage.

His damage roll is 2d8 +7, causing anywhere inbetween 9 to 23 damage per hit, but an average of 15 he he rolls 4 twice (4+4+7=15). At 1.5 hits per round, he does 22.5 damage per round. With the averaged critical damage factored in, that comes up to almost 23 damage per round (22.8375)

Fred attacks
Fred fires 1 fireball at Billy in 1 round, he has to roll a 15 or higher to make the save. Over 4 attacks he will take 100% damage 3 times and 50% damage 1. On average he will take 87.5% damage per attack.

The fireball does 11d6 x1.5 damage, causing anywhere inbetween 16.5 to 99 damage per hit, but an average of 49.5 if he rolls 3 every time. If he makes Billy save 25% of the time, then it comes to around 43 damage per round (43.3125).

Billy gets hurt
Fred just did 43 fire damage. Billy has a 20% immunity to fire, and so only loses 35 hp (34.4).

Fred gets hurt
Billy just did 23 slashing damage. Fred has a 20% immunity to slashing, and so only loses 18 hp (18.4)

------------

Now, admittedly they're both being ineffective here...

Fred has spells that can do acid, cold, electrical, fire, sonic, divine and/or pure magical damage (and more), and if he hit f2 instead of f1, he could completely get past Billy's resistances and save bonus, and do a lot more damage. Ofcourse if Billy had a really high spellcraft skill, he could see which spell was being cast and quickly switch his cloak and shield to provide protection against the specific damage each spell does, but we are talking about a lvl 11 pure class fighter here. He is protected from 1 of half a dozen damage types (not mention that he is giving up his physical protection to help him defeat other fighters)

Billy could pull out bludgeoning or piercing weapon instead, however many items at that level have damage immunity to one physical type and damage resistance to a different type, for instance a lvl 9 item called Enhanced Fine Padded Armor has 0 base AC, +3 armor bonus, bludgeon immune 10%, bludgeon immune 5%, slashing resist 5/-. If Fred has been wearing this in the above example, Fred would have ignored the 15% bludgeon immunity, and would have 5 slashing ignored from his attack and he still would have done only 18 damage. for the whole round (or even less if the resist is applied to each attack instead of just to the first per round). Billy is protected from 2 out of 3 physical damage types, and his elemental resistance and similar buffs give him similar protection from magical damage.

Billy would have to spend 3 rounds testing each of his 3 weapons, just to see which one does the most damage. In those 3 rounds he would have been hit by 3 spells, and there is a very low chance that he was protected from any of damage types the spell uses.

[JesterOI]

I agree, I think everything is fine the way it is right now, except for being able to use rest as an exploit to get past your given number of spells per day.

[Alexiagold]

His longsword has a threat range of 19-20 (x2), so he will get a critical 1% of the time (He has to roll 19 or 20 twice in a row), at double damage, which adds an average of 1% more damage per hit. At 1.5 hits per round, it's an extra 1.5% averaged damage.

You are incorrect, he has a crit chance on each attack of 10% of getting a crit, by rolling a 19 or 20, this must then pass a threat roll, against the ac of the critter. Thus his actual crit rate is quite good, not just 1%.

You forgot one thing, round 1, Billy hits with IKD, mage can't cast, loses -4 ac, plus all dodge ac. Round 2, being prone, Billy easily hits again with IKD, mage dies.

Most mages will use armor with all one resist to a weapon ype, if they don't heck why switch weapons they won't block much anyway. Maybe you should always use a Bludge? Since virtually no mobs and no players seem to have bludge resists?

[JesterOI]

You actually read his post Alexia? lol....
I scanned to see how much was there, and skipped it!!!

It's not a matter of damage, it's a matter of spellcasters getting more spells per day than they are supposed to.

While I'm not in favour of making it so that mages can't use a spell slot for 24 game hours, I am in favour of putting some sort of time limit on it.

I'd pick 4 game hours for a spell slot to recharge. With that limit mages get 6X what they should get.

[Revenge]

Oh right, my bad. In that case Billy's chances to crit would be as follows:
Attack 1: 10% chance to roll a 19-20, must roll a 5 to crit = 7.5% chance to crit
Attack 2: 10% to roll 19/20, must roll 10 to crit = 5% chance
Attack 3; 10% to roll 19/20, must roll 15 to crit = 2.5% chance

Odds for 3 attacks in 1 round:
1 crit = 14%
2 crits = 0.7%
3 crits = 0.01%

That's basically a 15% chance that Billy will score a crit in any given round. At double damage averaged out per attack that gives him 15% more per hit, so he's really doing 26 averaged damage per hit, not 23.

IKD against somebody the same size as you means you just gotta score a hit, so yeah, 75% chance to get the bugger down on the first strike... However I could easily counter that by saying the caster is hasted, and dragging both Summon 6 and a lvl 11 familiar around, but I had been trying to avoid bringing more complications into it

[Revenge]

You actually read his post Alexia? lol....
I scanned to see how much was there, and skipped it!!!

If you had read it you would have realised I tried to be unbiased and didn't argue for either side right till the end bit, meaning that it would have really only been good as reference material for those who cared enough about the numbers of it (and seeing as somebody called me a nub for bad maths I figured there'd be atleast one who would read it).

If you don't care about the damage numbers, then there wasn't any point in your reading that anyway.

[JesterOI]

I'm sure you had good stuff to say, I just didn't read it cause I am lazy!

[Revenge]

Which is fine by me because it wasn't aimed at the people who don't care about numbers

[JesterOI]

Oh I care about the numbers.... Just not havig to read half a novel about them lol