Druid Elemental Form

[Rufio]

Ok, there is really 2 reasons why elementals are good: really high ACs and good damage for a dexer.

There are 2 things that help this that have no good reason for existing (I would consider them bugs)

I don't know why, but boots give double dodge bonus to ac while shifted, which I know most people are aware of. How about we fix this so they get normal dodge bonus to ac? It would knock off about 5 ac from most elementals, but in this case it is not at the expense of attack bonus, because that is one thing that elementals often lack even as they are right now. My Air elemental can only get up to 59 ab even with the black sword, epic weapon focus in light hammers, blinding speed, and epic prowess assuming he is self buffed.

Also air elementals are getting bonus physical damage equal to the weapon bonus, meaning I am getting +8 bonus physical damage from my black sword. those changes would knock down AC and damage into the range of a normal build, only by fixing things that shouldn't be happening in the first place

[Shadowalker]

I have to post.. having just helped a shifter test the double boot effect.. in combat log I was able to hit him at a lower ac than that reflected on character sheet with the dbbl boot bonus. perhaps its just eyecandy..

I like Korrs work and cahils inclusion of gensi.. its also been sugested in game that maybe the elemental form could scale from base at 10 or 20 to best at 40 lvls of druid not character lvls.

A possible gensi druid effect could be improvement on thier paticualr form of shape.. and/or enhance elemetal summons or even a elemtal summon that was always of their subtype.

[Amoenotep]

i want to make you guys aware that your getting a rare option to chime in your thoughts on some of the nerfs THAT ARE GOING TO HAPPEN before they happen....so don't complain about what you think your getting. if you don't participate, its your fault you got screwed.

[Amoenotep]

right now a tiered program seems to be best.

elemental forms by themselves are not game breaking...mixing them with classes that have giant bonuses...puts them over the top.

[Lokey]

Yeah, double dodge bonus was a way to make the other shapes work, since we're not giving base armor ac and the way boots are done (even if some rule breaking OP stuff slipped in) work well for leveling. Because it has to work somewhat at every level it's available

As far as druid/shifter goes it's probably ok as is: no weap feats (-3 ab, lower crit range), no hips + epic dodge, no wm (+ maybe 3 ab plus 2 greater crit range and one higher multiplier) and blinding speed being tough to get when taking shapes with wis reqs.

Is sickle finessable? Kama or kukri aren't going to happen. Slash + weap finesse isn't easy Changing weaps means lots of issues for existing chars. Maybe much lower con for air and much lower str for fire...make water seem like less of a compromise.

Korr, I like your thinking here, probably need to weight dex somewhat--ok, a lot. Probably review the immunities on them and put them in line with shifter (no mental immunes).

[Korr]

Ok to start, comparing a druid with elemental shapes to a PM I think is a little over the top. PM have access to a completely different set of spells (including epic mage armor and epic warding). PMs have their crit immunity all the time so they can sling spells while having crazy AC, a crazy summon, and having crit immune/sneak immune. The comparison just doesnt feel right to me.

I can see where people are saying that elder elemental shapes shouldnt be a viable option for a level 40 to be using. Consider this though: Druids have between the 3 main caster (sorc/wiz, druid, cleric) types the worst spells overall. . . not that they dont have their gems, we all know they do. Elemental forms is a way for the druid to be different, to have its own thing. . . and moreover be able to do melee combat (without having to be a huge dragon that wont fit in alot of areas on the server). It strikes me that saying "an ability you get at level 16/20 shouldnt be applicable at level 40" means that EVERY spell in the game (outside epic spells) "shouldnt be applicable" for use by a level 40 character. But such is not the case. . . almost every caster has grease memorized/learned and its level 1. Find me sorc/wiz that dont have and use IGMS, which they get at level 11. The reason that shifter forms were not ALL designed to be used by level 40s is that you get NEW forms about every 2 levels. Each new set of forms is basically a higher tier of the previous forms, few shifters use forms below the first 2 tiers (other than for buffs/other special abilities). It is fairly obvious that NS4 is designed for end-game builds. . . 3 easy examples are that you need 30 PM levels for the best summon, and then RDD dragons and druid(/shifter) dragons dont get a good beef untill 35. Also consider for druids that arent pure, the elder elementals are end-game for them. When I was leveling Ben Dover, I was using the non-elder shapes and the animal shapes as it went along. Agreed it was pretty much cake by the time I got my elder elemental form, but at the same time it came late enough in the build I went from using a weapon without focuses and a minimal blinding speed dex to a great dexterity and 4 AB from feats, imp crit, etc.


Scaling the elemental forms is a good idea, but I think thats where you start to get the point of breaking already existing builds. As far as I remember in the changelog (Ive read all of it) there has never been a change that just destroyed multiple character (no matter how much people said it did). So to suddenly take the level 20 druids and say 10 str 12 con and 24 dex would mean I would never be able to play Ben Dover again. . . not because "its not as powerfull" but that it would NOT survive ANYWHERE in the epic planes. I wouldnt think that the devs would do this. . . but it seems like some people are leaning this direction. Scaling is something that alot of other games do (Ive been playing D2 lately). . . what happens when you scale is that there is a break point for diminishing returns. I would just like to atleast set out a warning of scaling/tiering this ability would just mean that people use 30 druid levels (or whatever the drop-off is) and still make powerfull builds. It would not be a solution to the problem it would just mean the problem is "put on the back burner". So becarefull in just dropping some stats and adding "monolith" and "primal" elementals for a druid to use.

I think the elder elementals should be a viable ability for a druid to use at level 40 (without scaling). With the recent druid spell changes you seem to want to gear a druid to be a spell-slinger. So a druid focusing in 2 schools of magic is using 4 of 7 pre-epic feats on that. 2 epic feats for epic focuses, (possible penetration in pre and post epic), then greater ruin and hellball. When all is said and done these spells will still never be as powerfull as a wiz/sorc counterpart. While yes a druid has a dragon feat they can take to lay back on, druids dont get a haste spell (or speed bonuses of any kind) so would be very inclined to get 25 dex atleast for blinding (and so they dont have to take heavy armor prof). 25 dex and 30 wisdom is no easy accomplishment, why should a druid NOT have something to lay back on other than needing to take a feat for it. Sorc/wiz gets epic mage armor and epic warding (feats yes) but are of permanent duration.

[Amoenotep]

elemental forms aren't an exploit...they are something that was changed hastily to make improvements, but never had enough time for full attention until now.


remember the most difficult part of balance is making sure it is still playable to the cheese builders as well as giving incentive for being a more pure form of the original char...all the while making it viable for both to use.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Ok to start, comparing a druid with elemental shapes to a PM I think is a little over the top. PM have access to a completely different set of spells (including epic mage armor and epic warding).

I can see where people are saying that elder elemental shapes shouldnt be a viable option for a level 40 to be using. Consider this though: Druids have between the 3 main caster (sorc/wiz, druid, cleric) types the worst spells overall. . . not that they dont have their gems, we all know they do. Elemental forms is a way for the druid to be different, to have its own thing. . . and moreover be able to do melee combat (without having to be a huge dragon that wont fit in alot of areas on the server). It strikes me that saying "an ability you get at level 16/20 shouldnt be applicable at level 40" means that EVERY spell in the game (outside epic spells) "shouldnt be applicable" for use by a level 40 character. But such is not the case. . . almost every caster has grease memorized/learned and its level 1. Find me sorc/wiz that dont have and use IGMS, which they get at level 11. The reason that shifter forms were not ALL designed to be used by level 40s is that you get NEW forms about every 2 levels. Each new set of forms is basically a higher tier of the previous forms, few shifters use forms below the first 2 tiers (other than for buffs/other special abilities). It is fairly obvious that NS4 is designed for end-game builds. . . 3 easy examples are that you need 30 PM levels for the best summon, and then RDD dragons and druid(/shifter) dragons dont get a good beef untill 35. Also consider for druids that arent pure, the elder elementals are end-game for them. When I was leveling Ben Dover, I was using the non-elder shapes and the animal shapes as it went along. Agreed it was pretty much cake by the time I got my elder elemental form, but at the same time it came late enough in the build I went from using a weapon without focuses and a minimal blinding speed dex to a great dexterity and 4 AB from feats, imp crit, etc.

Scaling the elemental forms is a good idea, but I think thats where you start to get the point of breaking already existing builds. As far as I remember in the changelog (Ive read all of it) there has never been a change that just destroyed multiple character (no matter how much people said it did). So to suddenly take the level 20 druids and say 10 str 12 con and 24 dex would mean I would never be able to play Ben Dover again. . . not because "its not as powerfull" but that it would NOT survive ANYWHERE in the epic planes.

I think the elder elementals should be a viable ability for a druid to use at level 40 (without scaling). With the recent druid spell changes you seem to want to gear a druid to be a spell-slinger. So a druid focusing in 2 schools of magic is using 4 of 7 pre-epic feats on that. 2 epic feats for epic focuses, (possible penetration in pre and post epic), then greater ruin and hellball. When all is said and done these spells will still never be as powerfull as a wiz/sorc counterpart. While yes a druid has a dragon feat they can take to lay back on, druids dont get a haste spell (or speed bonuses of any kind) so would be very inclined to get 25 dex atleast for blinding (and so they dont have to take heavy armor prof). 25 dex and 30 wisdom is no easy accomplishment, why should a druid NOT have something to lay back on other than needing to take a feat for it.

PM’s have glaring weaknesses in their divine and fire vulnerability. Nothing more really needs to be said. Ever see how fast a cleric casting searing light takes down a PM build? You know better Korr.

Yes they can counter spell, and they get epic mage armor and its possible to get epic warding with a PM. First off, epic warding is a shadow of its former self, why? I don’t know. I’ve speculated that it was to justify the changes to spells that have been wrought by the staff. To balance the nerf to warding they’ve made it so that you can make mages with unbelievably high AC. With epic mage armor, A sorc/bg is an easy 70+ AC with divine shield. A Sorc/bard is 66 self buffed and 70+ with bard song. If you go Sorc/monk, you’re talking 75+ with a bard song, and that’s charisma based, not dex based. A dex based sorc/mk/sd, well we won’t go there. The fact that a PM can also take advantage of these is yeah I think overpowered, and my brother built Bolg to shed light on these glaring problems, but no dice as of yet.

Be that as it may, a PM can’t become a HiPSer, can’t get epic dodge, can’t have evasion, all those reasons why monks and rangers aren’t allowed into MA. It would put them over the top.

Druids are sucking without haste this is true. But other than that, as far as spell selection is considered, it’s silly to think that they have the worst selection of spells. They have one of the most powerful selections of spells, they just get no speed. If you have to build for blinding speed, it limits the effectiveness of many of those spells in the 40 endgame. HOWEVER, having to build for blinding speed for dragon shape doesn’t limit the effectiveness of a dragon. The physical stats on a dragon are already in place so how you build your character after achieving the required 30 wisdom is pretty simple. Building for 25 dex and 30 wisdom is an easy achievement. In fact a blinding speed dragon with auto-quicken and stunning fist is a piece of cake. When a blinding speed caster druid can solo dwarf home at lvl 30, yeah I’m not feeling ya on the druids needing an uber powerful elemental shape.

My suggestion is to reduce the elder shapes to the huge shape stats and make lower stats for the shape. What’s wrong with an Air elemental with 12 strength 35 dex and 18 con. That’s STILL better than most dex based toons out there can get, AND you get druid buffs. I’m not gonna spell out the AB’s and AC’s here, but its still pretty good, and after looking at the AC/AB potential, more than playable at 40, still ridiculously powerful in my opinion. The fact that the elemental shapes are crit immune, disease immune, immune to mind effects, paralysis, poison, and sneak attack, is really really really powerful in and of itself and the reason why a lot of players used this shape in the past before the new boost came into effect. For people to say that you can’t play those toons anymore without those shapes is just silly.

Seriously Tal, be constructive. Accusing someone of exploiting in NS4 terminology is the same as calling them a cheater. Guys like Korr and psiber weren’t cheating, they just realized the awesome potential of the elder elemental forms before anyone else did. I remember discussing Vinden PWnD with psiber at the outset and sharing a chuckle when he said “it’s gonna get nerfed.” Same with Ben Dover, we knew at the outset these forms were going to get nerfed.

How much should they be nerfed? To kingdom come I say!!!!

[Amoenotep]

i trimmed so much off topic fat out of this topic its insane. i would like all future comments to be ways to better/improve these forms in a constructive way instead of just accusing everyone of cheating and everything should be nerfed. stay focused here or it might cost you later.

[mgrjebbo]

I have a serious question. At what point on NS4 did everything get so overpowered? The building tactics havent changed that much for the better in the last 2 years. I remeber when a Cleric/Rogue/WM or many other Cleric/Rogue combo's was one of the best builds on the server. In fact it was so good that everyone agreed clerics needed a huge change.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that somehwere along the way NS4 turned into uber cheeseville. I suppose it was needed considering the difficulty of some of the areas being designed, and the fact that its all realative.

I guess i just liked it better when 65 ac was a decent build and Zons where the toughest mobs. Seemed less... I cant find the words.

Maybe by lowering druid stats we can make the first move into bringing back a less insane way of doing things. +5 gear. 55 ab.

Nerf everything.... ALOT!

[Tal]

This is a quote from the wiki about the shifter class: "This class cannot be mixed with anything other than Druid in order to choose Undead Shape, Outsider Shape, Construct Shape, or Dragon Shape. "

I wanted to point this out for some important reasons. The shapes listed are those with the crit immunities and all the other neat bonuses, abilities, and additional immunities. This was done I can only assume in order to prevent HiPSing constructs, the HiPSing Rakasha, a HiPSing Dragon and other nasty combinations. From what I can gather the elemental shapes pretty much fall into the same categories with really the only thing missing being the regeneration, and they can be played with a full range of multiclass combinations including prc's that are allowed in whatever faction they are made out of. After doing some comparisons and playing with some different class combinations I tend to lean towards the elemental shapes being for pure druids only as stated previously. I liked the idea to begin with, but after seeing the shifter forms and restrictions it makes even more sense now. It would entice and add to the pure druid build, and yet it would not allow for abusive class combinations that were noticed with the similar forms used in shifter builds.

If the elemental forms were restricted to pure druids would the stats still need to be taken into consideration or changed for the different shapes?



P.S. I am with you on that 100% mgrjebbo.

[Amoenotep]

we would like elemental/animal shapes to still be viable for cross classing...but not to the extent that they are now where you can pretty much be "the" build to beat. it wasn't supposed to be that way..but it ended up that way, now we are trying to lessen it so that it can follow a line of power without being all power all the time.

[Korr]

Comparing the powers of the elementals to the powers of the epic shifter feats is like your match to my bonfire.

Constructs all get 15/+8 DR, crit immunities, immune to 5th level spells and below(and other immunities), a HUGE discipline boost, and KD. . . all for free! On top of this each one has specific spells they are able to cast. . . like 2x shifter level regen for (if I remember) 5 rounds. Thats up to 40 regen a round. . . they can cast it INFINITELY. KD bolts on another golem and a slow breath on a third. . . fail that save without FoM and its like the 7th level bigby (bioware slow, so a haste wont remove it). These same shapes all can get a +12 modifier in their dex score, for a decent AC, 24 con is a little low I will agree (crit immunity tho), but a WHOPPING 48 str for a modifier of 25!!! They all each have a bonus/weakness to different damage types (physical and elemental) is their ONLY drawback.

Undead get a decent 5/+6 DR, almost the same immunities as golems (except the spell level one). A nice disc boost as well, 2 50% immunities, 2 25% immunities, and only 1 of each 50% and 25% vulnerabilities. Also they have the ever important turn resitance so some how-de-do cleric cant just flop them on their backs! 2 of the 3 undead forms give KD for free, and EACH of the undead forms has +20 vampiric regen on their weapons (ie every hit = 20 more life). While the stats are nowhere in the realm of the constructs, each of these builds receives a respectible AC bonus just for shifting. This is the lowest (I think) level of the shifter feat forms. Each has a harm self (3/day) and then a gaze, free raise dead (albeit weak. . .its a raise!), or invisibility (each can be cast infinitely).

Outisders dont boast as much as the others do (in some spots). In general they all only receive a disc boost on par with that of the constructs. Each form is more unique from the others than with undead or constructs. Azer boasts great str and a good dex/con backup, EASY tank here. . . as well with immunity to fire (and then some vuln to cold). Free/infinite flame weapon, elemental shield, and a ray that does fair damage (used to be better), and of course KD. Slaadi gets a HUGE regen boost, as well as the regen spell for a possible 50 regen PER ROUND!!! Magical damage on a ranged touch attack backed with a well rounded stat base (only lacks some AC). Lets also consider the 25% elemental resistances (EVERY element). Rakshasa is one of my personal favorites. . . killer stats in the AC/HP department (str isnt shabby either). Immunity to 8th level spells and below. . . mages worst nightmare. On top of these nice things, trueseeing infinitely (no more invis/easy spot boost) greater spell breach (A M A Z I N G ! ! ! ! ! ) and ice storm. . . which in its revamped state doesnt check for SR and doesnt give save. Rakshasa is an amazing shifter form!

Dragons. . . beaten to death, we all know what they do! If you dont theres about 20 threads you can check.

What do the elementals give? Class flexibility, and some immunities (I disagree with alot of the bonuses that they get (refer to my first post in thread)), which again does NOT include mind immunity. Pulling elementals into the pure druid or druid/shifter only domain is crazy considering they are NOWHERE near as powerfull as the shifter shapes. Im sorry if noone is making shifter so noone has anything to compare it to, 2 of my easy hand-full of builds I shouldnt bring out are shifters! Everyone thinks shifters are weak because noone is playing them, noone is playing them because the shifter changes made them EXTREMELY complex to try and play (and you have to test their abilities).

This seems to leave the two options. Make it pure druid only, or chop a few inches off the top of the elemental. As with everything else we all know its a work in progress, that being said. . . why dont if anything we start simple. Taking down some of the stats and balancing them there. . . flipping the switch to pure druid only would not only be (sorry to say) the lame way out but would COMPLETELY cripple multiple builds on the server.

[Amoenotep]

you fail to note that epic shifter feats require a great input to wisdom..30 for dragon...and only druid/shifter as a class.

elemental shapes you gain at mid range druid lvl, can cross it with ANY class available in your faction to boost its weak spots. Hips, Epic Dodge, WM bonuses to your given forms...just those 3 alone will weight heavily into any build you make.

[Lokey]

Shifter epic forms mean disc & tumble not class skills, and since shifter levels fuel abilities your druid spellcasting isn't so hot. It's hard to cover all the bases on your own (SR race and blinding speed only go so far). Which is the point, how breakable are they on their own and a little bit of how uber can they get with full caster backup?

There's plenty of ways to address without killing existing characters (beyond I lost 2 appraise, it's worthless now). Dex needs a higher weighting, and I think lower str on air and con on fire at least makes earth and water more attractive polymorph.2da ac is dodge and we can put a constant +ab on the weap, that would let us lower dex without too much change, but make characters less buffable in ac/ab (it's not my preferred fix, I like a decent ceiling on how much you can buff).

(Off the top of my head, bard/bg/druid could do 61 + dex ac (8 base, 20 dodge, 10 deflect + nat, 8 tumble, 9 shield, 6 armor) off the top of my head, dex + 26/7 + 4 feat + 2 blinding + 3 song + 8 weap ab. Which is pretty much what Maou built, but seemed too tedious for me to try playing...)

PS: Stealth change. Removed the paralysis/poison(you have venom immunity)/disease immunes. Epic water = +6/5 dr, earth +7/10. Non-epic water = +5/5, earth +6/10. Yeah, worthless endgame, but it's a beef from what it was.