Purist Wizard/Sorceror Ideas

[MasterYoda]

i still dont think they got past the "control familiar" exploits, we used to use our familiars as scouts....that have an infinite distance and teleport back to you when you dont want to control them anymore.

but i agree partially with Yoda here.

mages are the most dangerous class in any server i NWN that doesnt completely gimp them (say no changes to spells and +20gear or the like).

i do think their DC's could use a little boost...but focus on LITTLE boost...

people here are comparing how a lvl 17wizard has comparable DCs to a lvl 40....maybe its not the lvl 40 thats underpowered...maybe its the lvl 17 thats OVERpowered.

mages quite have their uses high lvls....though IMO they are not nukers and were never meant to be...they are support to me. and there is a large number of senior mage players who could attest to their power.

a lvl 17 mage though...hell, whats gonna stop that?. nothing pierces your DR, or even has a chance to save against your spells yet. im sure anyone who has played a mage knows how rediculous they are low lvl. from personal experiences, i know at lvl 14 or so i could solo pretty much any mob (and any group of those mobs)...often id run up the mountain with ethereal visage on, gather the entire map...cast a grease...stand in the middle of the pack taking 0 damage (cept for crits) and spam AoE's. dead pack, rest - next map...once you get death magic you dont need to rest.

it continues being easy as pie for several levels, then the mobs and players start to catch up to you...just think about that, maybe you guys wanting huge changes to mages are just spoiled.

this extends to all low lvl casters though. my first toon on NS, a druid, was able to solo Neversummer City at lvl 14.

a mage is a thinking mans class, imo. many servers dont include this because they make mages so powerful that all you have to do is spam ice storm and horrid wilting and IGMS....in this server, there are more reasons not to use those spells in certain situations. you need to see who you are fighting and use something that pertains particularly to that class/build/player...

wizards are certainly capable here, sorcerers are worse (mainly because of an imbalance of gear) but they are still deadly.

i wouldnt mind some changes to mages...but please, small changes...nothing dramatic as i think tweaking mages is very very delicate. dont want those lvl 40s having such ease as their lvl 17 counterparts...

some things i would suggest:
-incremental increase in universal DC's of +1 per 6 epic levels. granting a mage (this i think could go for any mage) a max of +3 DC. a pure mage would get an additional +1 to DCs at lvl 40.

-increase in damage cap for spells with saves on them. spells that do damage even if a save is made and evasion cannot negate that damage, should receive less of a bonus than spells whose damage can be completely negated through a save. higher lvls spells should not receive a bigger bonus than low lvl spells or else it forces people to ignore those low lvl spells more.

thats about it...it doesnt look like much, but it would change a lot.
not to mention pure mages will get devastating unique abilities.

people whine now of Warlords Rumble and Bloody Roar...
what about that Mage Token of Rape...

its one thing to implement that token, its another to implement that token and make the BASE mage so overpowered, if you know what i mean...


on a similar note:
i think a good wiz token would be some kind of hellball-ey thing

but even cooler for sorc, would be a token that when used...replenishes all your uses/day of spells - perhaps to keep it balanced it would strip all the sorcs current buffs when used

*claps*

[cRaZy8or5e]

*joins in applause*

[disastro]

the low level mage analysis is pretty good, but keep in mind that we are talking about post epic level *pure* mages. 'roundup and kill' is not nearly as effective past frostdale, and those are the levels we are talking about targetting (including pvp).

thats another reason why i like making all level spells save as level 9 or 10 for the purist. it doesnt increase your top level dc (so no dc 60 wails etc) but it brings up the entire spell list into play. after that, you have a level field with which to implement an across the board dc increase that makes sense without making anything overpowered.

i do agree that pure wizards don't need a whole lot to be brought up to snuff, just a few things would make the class rock compared to what can be done via multiclassing.

[Queltor]

I guess I'm going against the grain and agreeing more with spinsane.

A PURE wizard needs DCs that relate to the Epic Progression.

An evocation focus mage should very well be running around nuking things.

An Enchanter should be able to Dominate Monster or confuse.

A Necromancer should be able to kill w/death magic- if they are using these spells on the weak-side saves, IE intelligently.

A wizard who focuses extremely should be able to kill with their specialized spells.

Let me explain what I mean by extreme focus:
- Pure wizards have 13 epic feats (same as clerics and sorcs)
- Ten of those go to Great INT (I-X)
- One goes to Epic Spell Focus
- The remaining two are the hard choices. What do you take, what do you not take? More schools? Auto-Quicken I and II? Epic Spell Penetration and something else?

How many wizards/sorcs/clerics are running around with Great INT/WIS/CHA X? Very few, I think. Why? The benefits of a maxed DC aren't worth the lack of other epic feats...

Solution? An item/token that boosts DCs according to the number of Great INT/CHA/WIS feats possessed. For example:
- Great INT VI: +1
- Great INT VII: +2
- Great INT VIII: +3
- Great INT IX: +4
- Great INT X: +6

[-BannyD-]

ehh, i dont quite like that...it makes "specialization" pointless. why should you specialize in a school/spell focus when you can just dump all your feats into Great Int and get them all?

[Aarkon Draco]

i do like the idea of some other perk to taking the great stat feats other than 1DC every two feats granted you get extra slots aswell but most are of low level spells that are by this lvl almost useless.

[disastro]

ehh, i dont quite like that...it makes "specialization" pointless. why should you specialize in a school/spell focus when you can just dump all your feats into Great Int and get them all?

yeah. id rather promote diversity in feat choices. different cool effects for the different epic spell focus/etc. nifty use for auto silent. that sort of thing. makes for more interesting builds than 'just take great int'.

[Queltor]

ehh, i dont quite like that...it makes "specialization" pointless. why should you specialize in a school/spell focus when you can just dump all your feats into Great Int and get them all?

Eh?

Epic Spell Focus gives a +6
Great INT/CHA/WIS X gives a +5 because of the stat increases
and Great INT/CHA/WIS X also gives another +6 (in my suggestion)

What do you mean dump feats and "get them all?"

Yes, different "cool" effects are neat. There should be a trade-off however. Boost DCs for people who want higher DCs. If you want Auto-Still III and Auto-Quicken III go for it... but don't complain when your DCs are lower because you didn't take all the Great stat feats.

This could even be combined with making all spells level 10 for pure casters.

[disastro]

my point was i'd rather see epic spell focus feats be the way to get high dcs (without changing the effect great int already has). so you could do all great ints, but it would generally be more attractive via effects &better dcs to pick and choose epic spell foci.

so if you wanted to build a one-trick implode style pony you could do your great ints, but it should be possible to get slightly less DC via the other feats and then have diversity.

In general DCs are a losing design proposition imo, you run into a huge disparity in player base saves vs caster DC. its better i think to focus on making spells do useful things even if you make the save (and maybe not instantly destroy you if you fail), so we dont run into trying to make the game fun for the casters vs divine grace cheesers vs. every other interesting build.

[MasterYoda]

ehh, i dont quite like that...it makes "specialization" pointless. why should you specialize in a school/spell focus when you can just dump all your feats into Great Int and get them all?

Eh?

Epic Spell Focus gives a +6
Great INT/CHA/WIS X gives a +5 because of the stat increases
and Great INT/CHA/WIS X also gives another +6 (in my suggestion)

What do you mean dump feats and "get them all?"

Yes, different "cool" effects are neat. There should be a trade-off however. Boost DCs for people who want higher DCs. If you want Auto-Still III and Auto-Quicken III go for it... but don't complain when your DCs are lower because you didn't take all the Great stat feats.

This could even be combined with making all spells level 10 for pure casters.

a mages main offense is there ability to et aq1-3. by taking that away for a DC boost isnt going to help make pure casters at all. in fact u give that to a mage and ill keep my aq. well see how quick u wish u had aq as well.

honestly a raise in DC and mabey a familiar like companion would be great but taking away there feat progression would be silly.

[Queltor]

a mages main offense is there ability to et aq1-3. by taking that away for a DC boost isnt going to help make pure casters at all. in fact u give that to a mage and ill keep my aq. well see how quick u wish u had aq as well.

honestly a raise in DC and mabey a familiar like companion would be great but taking away there feat progression would be silly.

I don't understand your resistance. You complain about something being taken away... nothing is. I'm suggesting something be added. It would still be a player's choice to bypass AQ3 in favor of Great stat X... if you don't think an additional +3 to your DCs (Great stat VIII vs. Great stat X) is worth it, don't do it.

Right now there's very little incentive to spend ten feats to max your DCs. I'd like to change that and make it (perhaps) worthwhile.

This is about greater player choice, not less.

[lord_modred]

just a random thought: i always thought specialist mages were severely underpowered to the extent of making it pointless to become a specialist(barring RP reasons). Perhaps specialist wizards should get a large bonus to the save DC of spells of their chosen school?

[-BannyD-]

well, they get extra spell slot per day and a +2 to DCs of favored school already i believe..

[LinuxPup]

Bioware, in their great wisdom, left out a function to determine if a wizard is specialized. A custom way of specialization could be done however.

They don't get a +2 DC in their school either.... I think they get a +2 to save vs. that school though.

[Binkyuk]

You think specialism is UP? IMHO specialism is OP if anything. I sacrifice 12.5% of the spells available and in return I get +25% to my base spell slots. Pick your barred school wisely and you only lose a couple of decent spells for a very noticeable increase in power.
incidentally there is no DC boost to specialised schools. You get a bonus to spellcraft recognising spells from your chosen school and a penalty for your barred school. not a biggie.

In any case I still don't think wizard specialism is the way to go because then we still have to decide what to do with sorcs, casting clerics and casting druids.

Queltor: Banny's argument against making Great Int give + to DCs is that there's little 'specialisation' there. Your build only has 2 extra DC to his chosen school over all the others because the Great Ints give bonus to all. As a suggestion, modify your Great Int so that it only boosts DCs in each school you have ESF in, then you really do need both.