The two main problems I have found with casters is that everything is running around with max HP for it's level and saves outpace spell DC's in epic.
The problem with the maxed HP is that spell damages are capped at pre epic levels and the damage die is too low.
Who's doesn't reroll their level till they get max HP?
So instead of a pure 20 barb having the avg 130hp+Con they have 260+con
But a level 20 wizard's horrid wilting is still calculated as it should be, 20d8 (90 avg dmg) instead of following the maxed HP which would leave the spell at 160dmg.
The main issue though is the cap on spell damages.
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Make the Dispel series of spells apply a penalty for "saves vs spells"
Allow a save for this penalty, but as if they were already afflicted by the penalty.
Have the penalty scale somehow with caster levels.
Maybe, have it so that the Dispel causes 3 rolls.
A fort save vs spell, a reflex save vs spell, and a will save vs spells.
If they fail the fort, they receive a fort penalty vs spells.
If they fail the reflex, they receive a reflex penalty vs spells.
If they fail the will, they receive a will penalty vs spells.
When the saving throws are made let them be made vs the proper DC of the dispel spell + a bonus equal to the penalty that the spell would apply.
Some way to skip past immunities, but with a penalty, would be nice for casters too.
Purist Wizard/Sorceror Ideas
Spell penetration is a big factor... if you only have 20 wiz levels you lack a lot compared to a pure wiz. Many players have innate SR and will resist a large portion of spells, even with epic spell penetration. I think 35 caster levels is the minimum I'd ever want to go.
And a level 40's buffs are much better than a level 20s. Duration and resistance to dispels is huge. An extended level 40 mass haste is awesome.
Currently mages are one of the most powerful classes in PvP... maybe not against all builds, but I know my builds could smoke a pure barb or pure fighter most of the time, but a mage could still slam me down with little effort.
And a level 40's buffs are much better than a level 20s. Duration and resistance to dispels is huge. An extended level 40 mass haste is awesome.
Currently mages are one of the most powerful classes in PvP... maybe not against all builds, but I know my builds could smoke a pure barb or pure fighter most of the time, but a mage could still slam me down with little effort.
Lead NS4 developer
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A pure fighter's will save is going to be around 26 to 30 if they reset their rings/hat and possible 35 if they cross-class spellcraft (and have a spellcraft boosting hat, which isn't impractical vs a wiz).
That's their weak save.
Without GSF or GI (the fighter doesn't take will save boosting feats), the most you can get your DC is 35 for a Dominate Monster or something that exploits low will.
Aside from timestop and IGMs, Bigbys, and grease- what can you use if you don't have GSF/GI? What can you if you do with something greater than a 40% chance of success?
If they can rumble first, you'll never be off your knees anyways.
That's their weak save.
Without GSF or GI (the fighter doesn't take will save boosting feats), the most you can get your DC is 35 for a Dominate Monster or something that exploits low will.
Aside from timestop and IGMs, Bigbys, and grease- what can you use if you don't have GSF/GI? What can you if you do with something greater than a 40% chance of success?
If they can rumble first, you'll never be off your knees anyways.
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MasterYoda
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ok ... i would liek to think i am a decent caster oon tiny.
here is the problem
a warrior type can beat on someone for x mins ... so if they use heals ( spells or any type ) then the mage runs out of spells then mage looses.
i cnat tell u how many poeple run DIRECTLY at my mage because of the threat she poses.
She is weak in melee and in pvp she is devestative.
max igms + 9 spells a day = 1200+ damage from 9 spells
now add my 8 empowered ones , 8 stilled ones and my 9 reg ones i have after buffs and u got alot of damage toi compensate for.
this is just one example of many things that can happen so bear with me here.
mages ARE NOT look at me solo classes.
hence u allways see a mage with a buffed summon. or some type of mass cc.
mages arent overpowered they are just very hard to level and unless u have played a mage for years on ns4 ( raises hand ) then u dont really see there use.
bigsbies arent what a mage is for , neither is there familliar. they dish out tons and tons of raw damage ... if they live long enough.
mages ( i cant believe i am saying thie ) dont need a boost. not now ... not ever
here is the problem
a warrior type can beat on someone for x mins ... so if they use heals ( spells or any type ) then the mage runs out of spells then mage looses.
i cnat tell u how many poeple run DIRECTLY at my mage because of the threat she poses.
She is weak in melee and in pvp she is devestative.
max igms + 9 spells a day = 1200+ damage from 9 spells
now add my 8 empowered ones , 8 stilled ones and my 9 reg ones i have after buffs and u got alot of damage toi compensate for.
this is just one example of many things that can happen so bear with me here.
mages ARE NOT look at me solo classes.
hence u allways see a mage with a buffed summon. or some type of mass cc.
mages arent overpowered they are just very hard to level and unless u have played a mage for years on ns4 ( raises hand ) then u dont really see there use.
bigsbies arent what a mage is for , neither is there familliar. they dish out tons and tons of raw damage ... if they live long enough.
mages ( i cant believe i am saying thie ) dont need a boost. not now ... not ever
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Neg Energy Burst, power word kill/stun, and Death Armor + Epic Warding is a pain to deal with. Spells should be relatively weak and sometimes useless if you don't focus in them, and should become powerful if you do focus in them heavily. I agree with you that spellcraft is often a problem.Aside from timestop and IGMs, Bigbys, and grease- what can you use if you don't have GSF/GI? What can you if you do with something greater than a 40% chance of success?
And don't just compare them to pure fighters... most people don't have a pure fighter and have never played one. Neg. Energy Burst is the single biggest pain for dexers...
Lead NS4 developer
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like most buffs, an extended lvl 40 haste lasts longer than the party will run before resting. let your 20 caster level wiz memorize 2 level extended hastes and he's done all the purist can do.LinuxPup wrote: An extended level 40 mass haste is awesome.
dispel? whatever. cast your second one then the party will rest.
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Aarkon Draco
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i do think a pure wiz or sorc should have higher damage caps than non pure
firebrand cap is 20 IIRC for pure raise it to 25 not that much of a boost but its enough to make a difference yet low enough to not overpower pure casters.
another idea for pure casters their AoE spells become party friendly ( fireball ect ) this would give some much needed croud control lower level spells back to a pure caster. tho id keep hellball as his everyone it is a hellball after all
another idea that applys to school foc mages have their spells from that school have higher damage capps inline with the higer capps i siggested for pure caster a evocation mage would have a cap of 30 for firebrand ect if he is a pure mage of that school. this only realy applys to evocationists other schools could get other benifits
enchant for ex can effect higher HD of monsters than the spell normal allows ( sleep hits up to 10HD ect )
divination gives better premonition spell max 40/+6 DR with 230 damage total ect
necro raises the dice on horrid wilting and neg energy ray burst ect
illusion better ghostly and ethieral vissage and a substantal increas to wierd DCs ( reason i say this is it has 2 saves and is hardly ever used since it does ) imp invis could give 70% conseal
Abjuration gets realy good dispells cap raised to 30 on thoes and the resist element spells have higer damage absorbing ( prot from element normal give 30/- and drops after absorbing 40 points for school foc pure mage it gets 30/- but drops after 60 points from one element )
transmutation gets the super buffs auto empowered and can be empowered agian for max of 10 or maxed to give 7 flat
conjuration gets even higher bonuses to summons perhaps just a good bit more hp they have instead of stats ect or allow them to summon in combat with no penaltys ( better option IMO )
sadly this only applys to mages as sorc cant choose a school so you would have to give sorc some other benifits more spell slots perhaps
firebrand cap is 20 IIRC for pure raise it to 25 not that much of a boost but its enough to make a difference yet low enough to not overpower pure casters.
another idea for pure casters their AoE spells become party friendly ( fireball ect ) this would give some much needed croud control lower level spells back to a pure caster. tho id keep hellball as his everyone it is a hellball after all
another idea that applys to school foc mages have their spells from that school have higher damage capps inline with the higer capps i siggested for pure caster a evocation mage would have a cap of 30 for firebrand ect if he is a pure mage of that school. this only realy applys to evocationists other schools could get other benifits
enchant for ex can effect higher HD of monsters than the spell normal allows ( sleep hits up to 10HD ect )
divination gives better premonition spell max 40/+6 DR with 230 damage total ect
necro raises the dice on horrid wilting and neg energy ray burst ect
illusion better ghostly and ethieral vissage and a substantal increas to wierd DCs ( reason i say this is it has 2 saves and is hardly ever used since it does ) imp invis could give 70% conseal
Abjuration gets realy good dispells cap raised to 30 on thoes and the resist element spells have higer damage absorbing ( prot from element normal give 30/- and drops after absorbing 40 points for school foc pure mage it gets 30/- but drops after 60 points from one element )
transmutation gets the super buffs auto empowered and can be empowered agian for max of 10 or maxed to give 7 flat
conjuration gets even higher bonuses to summons perhaps just a good bit more hp they have instead of stats ect or allow them to summon in combat with no penaltys ( better option IMO )
sadly this only applys to mages as sorc cant choose a school so you would have to give sorc some other benifits more spell slots perhaps
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IMHO wizard specialisations aren't the place to fix things. I think sacrificing a school of magic to gain a spell slot per day is a nicely balanced tradeoff.
Spell focus feats are how we've been dealing with it so far. It's not a bad system in that it vaguely favours dedication to your class because more epic levels = more feats and so more foci. The main problems are that you still have a 'power hump' at 21, and while a 40 wiz can specialise in 5+ schools, a lowly 22/18 wiz/X can easily specialise in 2.
Spell focus feats are how we've been dealing with it so far. It's not a bad system in that it vaguely favours dedication to your class because more epic levels = more feats and so more foci. The main problems are that you still have a 'power hump' at 21, and while a 40 wiz can specialise in 5+ schools, a lowly 22/18 wiz/X can easily specialise in 2.
Maybe we should approach the whole thing from another angle. Make the crafting even more worthwile. Sorcerers already have better gear and more spell slots, more flexibility (if the spells are chosen correctly) than wizards. And some factions have the possibility to take paladin or blackguard lvls to cheese the build out.
The wizards however are crafters and scribers. I always wanted to play a wand wheeling wizard (yes www
), as you fling missiles left and right, grease the enemy and death ray (ok, maybe not a ray, but a finger) them. More variety and higher dc on them could help the mage. And they should be non droppable me thinks, thus bards and rogues wouldn't be able to use the high lvl crafted stuff... With some stuff being the exception like the existing items.
The wizards however are crafters and scribers. I always wanted to play a wand wheeling wizard (yes www
), as you fling missiles left and right, grease the enemy and death ray (ok, maybe not a ray, but a finger) them. More variety and higher dc on them could help the mage. And they should be non droppable me thinks, thus bards and rogues wouldn't be able to use the high lvl crafted stuff... With some stuff being the exception like the existing items.
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MasterYoda
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i got an idea quick easy fix.
level 40 pure mage = familiar
give pure castrts there feline. there level 40 buffed familiar. that would be the best thing ever for a pure. and would up the damagwe and pvp ablith alot if u know whar the pets do.
u gave us awesoms summons. i think if implemented then if would be awesome.
and rangers and druids too. that would make those 4 classes have a nice boost i pvp imo anyways.
level 40 pure mage = familiar
give pure castrts there feline. there level 40 buffed familiar. that would be the best thing ever for a pure. and would up the damagwe and pvp ablith alot if u know whar the pets do.
u gave us awesoms summons. i think if implemented then if would be awesome.
and rangers and druids too. that would make those 4 classes have a nice boost i pvp imo anyways.
TGPO wrote:Man, dont u hate it when yoda is right
Amoenotep wrote:yeah....he's a little right
i still dont think they got past the "control familiar" exploits, we used to use our familiars as scouts....that have an infinite distance and teleport back to you when you dont want to control them anymore.
but i agree partially with Yoda here.
mages are the most dangerous class in any server i NWN that doesnt completely gimp them (say no changes to spells and +20gear or the like).
i do think their DC's could use a little boost...but focus on LITTLE boost...
people here are comparing how a lvl 17wizard has comparable DCs to a lvl 40....maybe its not the lvl 40 thats underpowered...maybe its the lvl 17 thats OVERpowered.
mages quite have their uses high lvls....though IMO they are not nukers and were never meant to be...they are support to me. and there is a large number of senior mage players who could attest to their power.
a lvl 17 mage though...hell, whats gonna stop that?. nothing pierces your DR, or even has a chance to save against your spells yet. im sure anyone who has played a mage knows how rediculous they are low lvl. from personal experiences, i know at lvl 14 or so i could solo pretty much any mob (and any group of those mobs)...often id run up the mountain with ethereal visage on, gather the entire map...cast a grease...stand in the middle of the pack taking 0 damage (cept for crits) and spam AoE's. dead pack, rest - next map...once you get death magic you dont need to rest.
it continues being easy as pie for several levels, then the mobs and players start to catch up to you...just think about that, maybe you guys wanting huge changes to mages are just spoiled.
this extends to all low lvl casters though. my first toon on NS, a druid, was able to solo Neversummer City at lvl 14.
a mage is a thinking mans class, imo. many servers dont include this because they make mages so powerful that all you have to do is spam ice storm and horrid wilting and IGMS....in this server, there are more reasons not to use those spells in certain situations. you need to see who you are fighting and use something that pertains particularly to that class/build/player...
wizards are certainly capable here, sorcerers are worse (mainly because of an imbalance of gear) but they are still deadly.
i wouldnt mind some changes to mages...but please, small changes...nothing dramatic as i think tweaking mages is very very delicate. dont want those lvl 40s having such ease as their lvl 17 counterparts...
some things i would suggest:
-incremental increase in universal DC's of +1 per 6 epic levels. granting a mage (this i think could go for any mage) a max of +3 DC. a pure mage would get an additional +1 to DCs at lvl 40.
-increase in damage cap for spells with saves on them. spells that do damage even if a save is made and evasion cannot negate that damage, should receive less of a bonus than spells whose damage can be completely negated through a save. higher lvls spells should not receive a bigger bonus than low lvl spells or else it forces people to ignore those low lvl spells more.
thats about it...it doesnt look like much, but it would change a lot.
not to mention pure mages will get devastating unique abilities.
people whine now of Warlords Rumble and Bloody Roar...
what about that Mage Token of Rape...
its one thing to implement that token, its another to implement that token and make the BASE mage so overpowered, if you know what i mean...
on a similar note:
i think a good wiz token would be some kind of hellball-ey thing
but even cooler for sorc, would be a token that when used...replenishes all your uses/day of spells - perhaps to keep it balanced it would strip all the sorcs current buffs when used
but i agree partially with Yoda here.
mages are the most dangerous class in any server i NWN that doesnt completely gimp them (say no changes to spells and +20gear or the like).
i do think their DC's could use a little boost...but focus on LITTLE boost...
people here are comparing how a lvl 17wizard has comparable DCs to a lvl 40....maybe its not the lvl 40 thats underpowered...maybe its the lvl 17 thats OVERpowered.
mages quite have their uses high lvls....though IMO they are not nukers and were never meant to be...they are support to me. and there is a large number of senior mage players who could attest to their power.
a lvl 17 mage though...hell, whats gonna stop that?. nothing pierces your DR, or even has a chance to save against your spells yet. im sure anyone who has played a mage knows how rediculous they are low lvl. from personal experiences, i know at lvl 14 or so i could solo pretty much any mob (and any group of those mobs)...often id run up the mountain with ethereal visage on, gather the entire map...cast a grease...stand in the middle of the pack taking 0 damage (cept for crits) and spam AoE's. dead pack, rest - next map...once you get death magic you dont need to rest.
it continues being easy as pie for several levels, then the mobs and players start to catch up to you...just think about that, maybe you guys wanting huge changes to mages are just spoiled.
this extends to all low lvl casters though. my first toon on NS, a druid, was able to solo Neversummer City at lvl 14.
a mage is a thinking mans class, imo. many servers dont include this because they make mages so powerful that all you have to do is spam ice storm and horrid wilting and IGMS....in this server, there are more reasons not to use those spells in certain situations. you need to see who you are fighting and use something that pertains particularly to that class/build/player...
wizards are certainly capable here, sorcerers are worse (mainly because of an imbalance of gear) but they are still deadly.
i wouldnt mind some changes to mages...but please, small changes...nothing dramatic as i think tweaking mages is very very delicate. dont want those lvl 40s having such ease as their lvl 17 counterparts...
some things i would suggest:
-incremental increase in universal DC's of +1 per 6 epic levels. granting a mage (this i think could go for any mage) a max of +3 DC. a pure mage would get an additional +1 to DCs at lvl 40.
-increase in damage cap for spells with saves on them. spells that do damage even if a save is made and evasion cannot negate that damage, should receive less of a bonus than spells whose damage can be completely negated through a save. higher lvls spells should not receive a bigger bonus than low lvl spells or else it forces people to ignore those low lvl spells more.
thats about it...it doesnt look like much, but it would change a lot.
not to mention pure mages will get devastating unique abilities.
people whine now of Warlords Rumble and Bloody Roar...
what about that Mage Token of Rape...
its one thing to implement that token, its another to implement that token and make the BASE mage so overpowered, if you know what i mean...
on a similar note:
i think a good wiz token would be some kind of hellball-ey thing
but even cooler for sorc, would be a token that when used...replenishes all your uses/day of spells - perhaps to keep it balanced it would strip all the sorcs current buffs when used
-Slave- [GM]
Psycho Banny and all his forms
Psycho Banny and all his forms
I'm talking about a purist bonus only, not BASE mages. 'Token-abilities' don't really fit the Wizard schema as they aren't likely to supplement what the wizard is supposed to do.
Thinking man's class? I've got 5 spells worth casting, I don't have to think about that much. These 5 spells are all effects that don't rely on DCs, that's the only reason why they're useful. I would LOVE to have the option to change my spells based upon the opponents I'm facing, but it usually doesn't make a difference, all of my ESF spells get saved against easily, or the immunities acquired from WANDS and RODS are the last thing to be stripped with my Mords. An FoM rod eliminates half the decent spells a wizard has available...
A PURE wizard needs DCs that relate to the Epic Progression. Before HotU or SoU, a Wizard could acquire competitive DCs, but when epic save progression is thrown into the mix, DC driven spells are not useful. At the very least, DCs need to increase per 2 levels of epic. And ONLY for a pure Wizard to compensate for the equivalent increases of Saves for all classes. Heck, I wouldn't even be able to hit myself with any of my level 9 spells, and I'm just a pure wizard.
The Wizard class is strong, but the pure wizard is very weak.
"IMO they are not nukers and were never supposed to be" well- that depends upon the Spell Focus or build. An evocation focus mage should very well be running around nuking things. That's what Evocation is all about, and a Wizard that focuses in that should be allowed to run around and nuke things. An Enchanter should be able to Dominate Monster or confuse, a Necromancer should be able to kill w/death magic- if they are using these spells on the weak-side saves, IE intelligently. Lower than level 6 spells are usually weak in themselves, super low DCs completely eliminate them as an option- making them an available option doesn't make the caster more powerful, it just makes him/her more versatile. They have to choose that level 3 spell or casting a level 9 spell, the level 9 spell will probably have a more effectual impact, but that option gives the Wizard something more than a third of their spellbook to work with.
As it is, even if you play the thinking game the Wizard doesn't really have any areas they can exploit.
The suggestions for a PURE wizard/sorceror in my first post are in consideration of the opportunity cost to multi-class and their relatively weak DCs. The suggested values are based upon the regular progression, IE what they would need to be to be useful. In NWN vanilla, a wizard's wail of death isn't going to take down a pure Barbarian, but a Dominate monster can.
IF there is a problem with Wizard/sorceror DCs, then Items can be made to compensate. Items that make a toon vulnerable to a melee class but stronger vs a wizard/sorceror. As it is, a Wizard in the mix doesn't really require a change of equipment in an opponent, but you'll definitely change your weapon/shield based upon your opponent's armor/weapon- why shouldn't the same apply for wizards?
Thinking man's class? I've got 5 spells worth casting, I don't have to think about that much. These 5 spells are all effects that don't rely on DCs, that's the only reason why they're useful. I would LOVE to have the option to change my spells based upon the opponents I'm facing, but it usually doesn't make a difference, all of my ESF spells get saved against easily, or the immunities acquired from WANDS and RODS are the last thing to be stripped with my Mords. An FoM rod eliminates half the decent spells a wizard has available...
A PURE wizard needs DCs that relate to the Epic Progression. Before HotU or SoU, a Wizard could acquire competitive DCs, but when epic save progression is thrown into the mix, DC driven spells are not useful. At the very least, DCs need to increase per 2 levels of epic. And ONLY for a pure Wizard to compensate for the equivalent increases of Saves for all classes. Heck, I wouldn't even be able to hit myself with any of my level 9 spells, and I'm just a pure wizard.
The Wizard class is strong, but the pure wizard is very weak.
"IMO they are not nukers and were never supposed to be" well- that depends upon the Spell Focus or build. An evocation focus mage should very well be running around nuking things. That's what Evocation is all about, and a Wizard that focuses in that should be allowed to run around and nuke things. An Enchanter should be able to Dominate Monster or confuse, a Necromancer should be able to kill w/death magic- if they are using these spells on the weak-side saves, IE intelligently. Lower than level 6 spells are usually weak in themselves, super low DCs completely eliminate them as an option- making them an available option doesn't make the caster more powerful, it just makes him/her more versatile. They have to choose that level 3 spell or casting a level 9 spell, the level 9 spell will probably have a more effectual impact, but that option gives the Wizard something more than a third of their spellbook to work with.
As it is, even if you play the thinking game the Wizard doesn't really have any areas they can exploit.
The suggestions for a PURE wizard/sorceror in my first post are in consideration of the opportunity cost to multi-class and their relatively weak DCs. The suggested values are based upon the regular progression, IE what they would need to be to be useful. In NWN vanilla, a wizard's wail of death isn't going to take down a pure Barbarian, but a Dominate monster can.
IF there is a problem with Wizard/sorceror DCs, then Items can be made to compensate. Items that make a toon vulnerable to a melee class but stronger vs a wizard/sorceror. As it is, a Wizard in the mix doesn't really require a change of equipment in an opponent, but you'll definitely change your weapon/shield based upon your opponent's armor/weapon- why shouldn't the same apply for wizards?