Do kender really deserve ECL bonuses?

Knightwing4 · Post by **Knightwing4** » Sun May 09, 2004 4:51 pm

Hey, i'm a fan of the dragonlance books etc. etc. and i'd love to play a tasslehoff type kender, but seeing the ECL, i'm a bit dis-inclined to play them now.

My main reason why they shouldn't: comparisons

1. Strongheart Halfling
Favored Class: Fighter

+2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom

Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse

2. Ghostwise Halfling

Favored Class: Barbarian

+2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom

+2 to all saving throws vs. Mind-Effecting spells and effects

Camouflage 1/day as cast by a Druid of their character level

3. Kender

Favored Class: Rogue

+2 Dexterity, -2 Strength, -2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma

+2 Open Lock, +2 Pick Pocket, +4 Taunt

Immunity to Fear

Level Adjustment +1

Ok umm... ghostwise and strongheart are a little better than their cousins, (both are much better than the original halfling), 0 ECL

Kender, on the other hand, lose 1 damage per hit (-2 str) but the worst part of the -2 str is the fact that you now carry even less than their cousins.

Umm they also get a few more skill points (Considering the die being rolled is a d20, the +2 is rather inconsequential when compared to the 5 being rolled or a 19 being rolled)

Immunity to fear is decent, though not many creatures have fear saves (other than dragons, but besides, there's other classes with fear immunity, faer immune spells, ways to resist fear, etc.)

Favored class rogue is also pretty good, but consider this, what happens when your halfling loses a close battle because of his ECL and damage/save penalties, *wham* there goes half of favored class bonus, do it again and you're hurting =/

The place where it hurts is here, they lose the +1/+2 (against mind) saveing throws, they don't get the camouflage of their ghostwise cousins, thus what i'm trying to say is that it seems that when compared to everything else, the best way to be a kender is to not choose a kender

dond · Post by **dond** » Sun May 09, 2004 6:04 pm

they get immune to fear...........which is huge (when it's working anyway)

that's 2 lvl of paladins to get permanent immune to fear.

i think it also renders you immune to phantasmal killer (or should anyway)

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Sun May 09, 2004 6:44 pm

I love the immune fear, while those stupid [censored] monster's are casting fear over and over trying to scare me I am sneak attacking their sorry asses!
I don't mind the +1 ecl for an immunity.

Knightwing4 · Post by **Knightwing4** » Sun May 09, 2004 8:31 pm

dond wrote:they get immune to fear...........which is huge (when it's working anyway)

that's 2 lvl of paladins to get permanent immune to fear.

i think it also renders you immune to phantasmal killer (or should anyway)

so a human who gets 2 lvls of paladin gets the fear immune&free feat from being a human, however a kender suffers save penalties, damage penalties, and a +1 ECL to get fear immune? =/ just doesn't seem right (btw, there's always gonna be people who don't mind the +1 ECL, it just seems like it would be better off being on par with a human with +0 ECL)

dond · Post by **dond** » Sun May 09, 2004 8:38 pm

well, if you take paladin lvls, that's 1 less class you can multi too.

Knightwing4 · Post by **Knightwing4** » Mon May 10, 2004 3:58 pm

dond wrote:well, if you take paladin lvls, that's 1 less class you can multi too.

pff pallys have a billion other bonuses, this class is often multied

Daltian · Post by **Daltian** » Mon May 10, 2004 4:00 pm

Immunity fear. ECL+1. Totaly fair!

Knightwing4 · Post by **Knightwing4** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:51 pm

Daltian wrote:Immunity fear. ECL+1. Totaly fair!

Read what i said, they lose saves, damage, etc. in return for this "uber fear immunity" which is so easy to get/resist

Daltian · Post by **Daltian** » Tue May 11, 2004 3:58 am

That's what kender is. And is ECL + 1. I don't see the reason to change it? Because you get same thing from pally?
Stupid reasoning.
Same as, who needs drow spell resistance. When I play my monk drow they don't cstack.

Thats simply what kender race is. Maybe it doesn't perfectly fit your style of play, but what can I say, play different race/subrace maybe. Not every subrace is suitable for everyone!

Shasz · Post by **Shasz** » Tue May 11, 2004 10:38 am

Kender don't lose the +1 halfling bonus to saves. None of the subraces lose those extras of their parent race AFAIK, just the stats get adjusted.

And you can't count the +2 vs. mind saves that another subraces gets as a loss for a subrace that doesn't get it. You might as well say he loses spell resistance and damage resistance from fire and cold and electricity and everything else that all the other races get for having chosen halfling in the first place.

And more than dragons have fear... trust me. Mummies, devils of several types, cave trolls... I've been feared more times than I can count in NS4 in my travels.

+5 to taunt can be big too (+1 from the +2 cha too)... your roll vs. the oppenent's concentration check determines the AC penalty, up to -6! -6 AC is +6 to you and your party's hit roll. That is big considering fighter classes get a whopping 2 or 3 skill points per level.

A kender bard / rogue would absolutely kill with bard song, curse song, taunt and sneak attacks.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Tue May 11, 2004 2:46 pm

Bards are the [censored] for dishing out ac penatlies to enemies. A bard can give you -11 ac with (nearly) maxed curse song and maxed taunt. Then they have their spells which are great. Like the one that hits enemies with a str and dex penalty for every round they are within range of the bard, while the bard get's +2 ab or something at the same time.