The new healing potion thing

[Binkyuk]

While I take your views seriously, I haven't seen "the majority" of respondees on this thread dead set against it. There are 20 times as many inches of text against it but that's not the same thing.

I get what you're saying that those dedicated to soloing are at a disadvantage though. We're busy cooking up ways as we speak to alleviate the problems.
A possibility that just occurred to me is adding a way to buff the healing abilities of non-dedicated healing classes (conj focus feats spring to mind). Right now you're unhappy about the likelihood of finding a dedicated healing class like cleric or druid, but if a bard, paladin, ranger or minor multiclass cleric or druid could fill the role in a pinch that'd make it a lot easier to build a solist or off-healer.

[Ebenezer Grymm]

I'm sorry that's been your experience, but it's not been mine in other worlds.

I said above I like the pot changes for my reasons, and just in general I think it makes sense (Masks death from over-hydration example etc.). But...

This

Is

Not

WoW.

Wolfarus makes an excellent point that on Reflections the amount of available people to party with is limited at best. Theres not 1000's of people logged into a server at once with 100's more waiting in the queue.

I agree that yes it does take a skilled, patient player to be a good cleric in WoW, and heal specced priests are always in high demend there, because most of the world wants to see their dps be at the top of the chart at the end of an instance.

But since my Wiz can't sheep a Dwarf Elite while an SD Saps another and a Sorc's summon charms another while he's fearing another and a Druid roots another and our Arcane Archers frost trap ices another and our tank generate enough threat to keep the remaining one from attacking anyone else, it seems it not gonna work in quite the same way.

[Binkyuk]

Yes I see where you're coming from. The whole threat mechanic in WoW makes things work quite differently. I'm not trying to make NS4 into WoW by any stretch, I personally find the whole Heal+Tank+DPS mechanic in WoW very artificial and would *definitely not* want to turn NS4 into a clone of it.

The idea was to lessen the effect of infinite use items, and hence to add more reliance on class abilities to longer encounters like our high end bosses rather than simply buying 1000 pots and serially chugging them while hitting every third round and eventually bringing down *anything* with enough time and gold. It was my hope also to provide a niche for dedicated healers in groups, and yes, probably essential in the very high end encounters.

Believe it or not the idea wasn't to make soloing impossible or to make dedicated healers absolutely essential - hence the diminishing returns implementation rather than an enforced cooldown on chugs (which would've hurt a *lot* more). The idea was that taking on mob groups that you can deal with reliably and only chugging once ot twice would still be perfectly possible. Apparently this hasn't been the experience of many players though.

The views of the dedicated soloists are ones I admit to not having considered - I came to a PW to interact with other players, I sort of tacitly assumed that everyone *wants* a party if they can get one. It never really occurrd to me that there would be players with a philosophical inclinations toward soloing.

You can bet that there will be changes as a result of your comments, I didn't exactly expect to get it "right" first time anyway. Though I'm still keen to make it so that pots arent the "Magic Bullet" to winning NS4 that they are now.


<rant>
And finally, what's with the PMs? This change is not about PMs. This affects class balance generally, but is not 'aimed' at PMs at all, either to nerf or buff them. PMs are a separate issue and are much more easily dealt with as such rather than bringing them into every discussion on everything to do with NS4. :/
</rant>

[Ryddwillow]

Implemented diminishing returns on healing potions and scrolls.
They'll be 15% less effective per use down to a floor of 50%. Effect is cleared on resting.

This only affects PCs.

The 50% floor is a first draft, we'll see what the effect is and hopefully may lower it later.

To me this seems to be a punishment to the people here who do not chug pots and to be taking a step back as far as to balance out this server. I see this as not a remedy but a hinderance here at NS4.

I just don't understand why the scaleback on healing potions? I am sure there are many other ways to balance this server which could be implemented to solve some solutions.

[Binkyuk]

To me this seems to be a punishment to the people here who do not chug pots

I don't understand. Could you explain a bit more?

[Ryddwillow]

I don't understand. Could you explain a bit more?

Was it broke before? If it isn't broke it does not need to be fixed.

It worked perfectly fine before and now of recent events as relic raiding it seems that it was changed to this to hinder the people who use healing potion more then others.

The relic system here enhances the game, it is not the game.

[Binkyuk]

Actually the PvM ramifications are the main point of the change, rather than PvP (and I wasn't thinking of PMs specifically at all).
We felt that the ability of any character to heal themselves up to full health very easily cheapened the role of the healing classes a lot - really, when did most bards, clerics and druids actually cast a healing spell in anger? Most battles even against difficult bosses severely lack teamwork.

[Ebenezer Grymm]

With the simplest answer always tending to be the best...

why not triple or quadruple the price of each healing potion and remove the ability to craft them?

They drop from monsters already which is great.

Everyone has way too much money hoarded as it is, this would give us something to do with it. Economy control.

And if someones going into areas like mentioned above and just slurping away an infinite number of times until they drop a mob, they are gonna be broke real quick, and have to go farm easier areas (where they probably should be) to get more moolah and be getting some amount of xp anyway.

Maybe slightly increase the % of potion drops, and have those potions be of a type appropriate to the CR of the monsters you're fighting. HoD, Pos., and Neg. drop Full Heals, Dwarves down to Zons drop Cure Crits. etc.

[Binkyuk]

Hmm, I'm reluctant to make your success in the game even more dependent on the amount of money you have. This tends to leave older players sitting pretty while leaving newer players out in the cold - entirely independent of their skill.

One of the other aims was to make it possible to create challenges that cannot be beaten without a decent level of skill, tactics and teamwork (yes, if I have my way you'll be quite able to get to level 40, but the 'extreme' challenges in NS4 will require the players to work together as a group). It's currently very difficult to do that because every player can whack their HP back up to full so easily. Raising the price won't prevent that, it'll just increase the amount of money required to do it.

[Blystos Re]

Actually the PvM ramifications are the main point of the change, rather than PvP (and I wasn't thinking of PMs specifically at all).
We felt that the ability of any character to heal themselves up to full health very easily cheapened the role of the healing classes a lot - really, when did most bards, clerics and druids actually cast a healing spell in anger? Most battles even against difficult bosses severely lack teamwork.

Quoted for truth.
And, essentially, pots just got a little more expensive. Less bang for your buck, which means you have to carry more of them, which means you have to buy more...which means you have to spend more.

Everyone is so quick to complain about it, and while Havok's post was amusing, NC has no more edge than anyone else. Almost any faction can make a pure cleric with the healing domain. Hell, take it a step further and take knowledge as well for knock, and with enough wisdom you replace the rogues role in opening most any chest or door (Amazons, Molemen, etc.). Or Travel so you can rush in and heal quickly.

This doesn't end the game for anyone's characters. This may change the way people play...but that's yet to be seen.

Build a good support cleric now and you'll be the most popular kid in school.

[Wolfarus]

Well, i cant speak for prime, since i havnt played there in over 2 years..

But i rarely have "too much" money. Especially now that i have a MA arcane crafter, and can make those 250k items

I think, between ALL my chars and mules, i MAY have 1.5 mil stored up. Wow, huge bankroll there.

Having to use constantly purchase cure crit and to a much lesser extent, heal pots for my higher lvls keeps my gold pretty tight. The most "gold mining" i have the patience for usually is around 300k, thats 1 full trip thru the frozen tomb, selling everything i can get my hands on.

I think the way things were, was just fine. Take epic zons for example. You had 2 main types of melee chars, who were VERY evenly mixed up. Lancers and axe users. Everybody brings pierc-resis gear, which leaves them completely vulnerable to the slashing damge of the axe users. Either way, you're taking full damage from 1 group and at least 1/2 damage from the other. So you're going to go thru the healing pots like crazy if you're mobbed by more then 3 zon's (providing you dont have crit immunity)

Personally, i think the way the devs have mixed up the damage types on all the mobs in epic area's balance the "ease" of potion-chugging. If players dont use lots of pots, with or without a cleric, they are going to die, quickly, in these area's.

Edit : Here's a off-the-hip idea. Put in a script that limits the amount of healing pots you can have in your inventory at any 1 time, and take out the nerf. Say 100. This prevents palyers from using up half their inventory slots just for healing, it keeps the solo-ists happy because it just means they'll have to go back to town more often, and for those epic area's where you might go thru 100 pots before getting half-way thru the maps, it'll give healing characters a place.

It can be 100 full heals (if you can afford it) 100 cure crits, any mixture of healing you want. This limit dosnt apply to kits, so those of us who wish to invest into the heal skill to get more out of said kits will have the added bonus they've earned with their invested skill points.

[Aarkon Draco]

jus a little fyi to blystos MA doesent have access to healing domain as it should be IMO them being the necromancer faction and all

[Blystos Re]

jus a little fyi to blystos MA doesent have access to healing domain as it should be IMO them being the necromancer faction and all

I and my post stand corrected.

They do have access to the PrC with the least need for healing, though.

Wow...there's some balance for you right there...

[-BannyD-]

-15% to a max of 50%...someone played Guild Wars.

Nope. I've briefly seen guild wars, but not in that much detail. How does it work there then?

it isnt a penalty to healing but rather your maximum health and mana. you start off at 0%. everytime you die you lose 15% morale, which means 15% less life and mana to a maximum of -50%. however, you can gain morale through multiple sources. completing a certain quest trigger, killing bosses, or even killing normal mobs will gain morale back after a certain amount of success up to a +10% bonus.

i wouldnt abandon this idea so soon. i still believe a 50% penalty is far too harsh as well as -15% per pot. i was thinking something like -5% per pot down to a max of -25%. but i would also suggest a way to regenerate that penalty. perhaps if you do not use a potion for 1minute you will regenerate 5% of the penalty, after 5minutes of not healing through potions you will have full effectiveness back. and perhaps after another 5 minutes of being at 0%, you could gain 5% effectiveness or something.

this could implement a new tactic into PvM. you would have to switch off who does the majority of the tanking. that person chugs pots to their hearts content and after 5minutes or whatever he switches with someone who currently has fully effective potions.

i dunno, i just dont like the idea of having to wait until rest to remove that penalty. all other debuffs can be removed without resting so i believe this one should too.

on another note....im thinking up some suggestions to improve healing kit useage to put them on par with potions for focused toons and pure classes that get a heal kit bonus.

[Amoenotep]

Toned down diminishing returns on pots to 10% per chug - floor at 65%.

give it some play now guys...see how its working out