My personnal thoughts on NS4 characters

Thanos · Post by **Thanos** » Thu May 06, 2004 6:53 pm

couple things. The creaters in the PnP games always tried to have classes have a rock, paper, sizzors feel. They wouldn't allow fighter to be RDD/Palemaster because it really has no negative effect to make them weaker in some other area. Now a sorc/RDD or a Palemaster/Wizard has weaker spell casting then a straight sorc or wizard. The class taken with a fighter has very little weakness added to the fighter. You may lose a few hit points and a couple points on your attack chance to hit. But the power you gain from the ac bonus, the immunities and the strenght is insane on fighters. Becasue its already added to the best of the best.

This is from the PnP games books and I can't say to a 100% how accurate I am quoting this stuff.Sorc is supposed to derive its power from having some dragon in his/her ancestry. A bard does not. He gains his power from song. A RDD is a greater manifestation of a sorc dragon ancestry. Now what point would it make for bioware to make it sorc only class it limits the scope of the people who can play their game. So they set up some rules for their game not taking in any type of balance considerations. So we have these crazy balance issues like dev critical, hips and crazy class combinations.

BTW this is just my opinion. If the developers want fighter palemaster then I may play one. I just think its an balance issue.

Revenge · Post by **Revenge** » Thu May 06, 2004 7:02 pm

Alexiagold wrote:My level 12 WM scyther soloed 6 cr 17 giants at one time, without any problems. Apparently you don't know how to build a fighter if you can't hurt them, die a lot, or have issues. Believe me, I'm new to playing a fighter, but for the sake of the beta I'm playing one, and they are just as easy, if not easier to play than my sorc was BEFORE half my spells were nerfed.

So is that with or without the vorpal scythe you found while playing with your high level mage char?

DrakhanValane · Post by **DrakhanValane** » Thu May 06, 2004 7:05 pm

If we really wanted to make things like "real PnP" we could set the level cap at 10-15. At least that's how I've always gone with it. Anything above level 10 is high level. Darn 2e roots.

As for the bard/sorc deal. Bards and sorcs derive their power from the same source--Themselves. That's why they use CHA as their spell casting stat. It's just a matter of how they harness the power. Remember that all stories start with and are usually made up of convienient plot devices. So if you want to make a character that becomes a Dragon Disciple you can say the reason they're so adept at magic is the trace amounts (maybe more) of draconic blood they have.

TC-GTRF · Post by **TC-GTRF** » Thu May 06, 2004 7:17 pm

Revenge wrote:
Alexiagold wrote:My level 12 WM scyther soloed 6 cr 17 giants at one time, without any problems. Apparently you don't know how to build a fighter if you can't hurt them, die a lot, or have issues. Believe me, I'm new to playing a fighter, but for the sake of the beta I'm playing one, and they are just as easy, if not easier to play than my sorc was BEFORE half my spells were nerfed.
So is that with or without the vorpal scythe you found while playing with your high level mage char?

Can't be that high a level if it's usable by a level 12.

Æ · Post by Æ » Thu May 06, 2004 9:14 pm

Thanos wrote:couple things. The creaters in the PnP games always tried to have classes have a rock, paper, sizzors feel. They wouldn't allow fighter to be RDD/Palemaster because it really has no negative effect to make them weaker in some other area. Now a sorc/RDD or a Palemaster/Wizard has weaker spell casting then a straight sorc or wizard. The class taken with a fighter has very little weakness added to the fighter. You may lose a few hit points and a couple points on your attack chance to hit. But the power you gain from the ac bonus, the immunities and the strenght is insane on fighters. Becasue its already added to the best of the best.

This is from the PnP games books and I can't say to a 100% how accurate I am quoting this stuff.Sorc is supposed to derive its power from having some dragon in his/her ancestry. A bard does not. He gains his power from song. A RDD is a greater manifestation of a sorc dragon ancestry. Now what point would it make for bioware to make it sorc only class it limits the scope of the people who can play their game. So they set up some rules for their game not taking in any type of balance considerations. So we have these crazy balance issues like dev critical, hips and crazy class combinations.

BTW this is just my opinion. If the developers want fighter palemaster then I may play one. I just think its an balance issue.

You're sacrificing ALOT of AB, and then balancing it out with more str AB, but don't forget, more importantly, you're losing alot of BASE AB too. Also don't forget, even more importantly, you're giving up your chance to take any other prestige class, like weapon master or shadow dancer or COT or....

And good question to Alexia revenge... what's the answer i wonder?

And as for bards, one of the problems I have with them in 3rd edition is that chr is their casting stat, they're supposed to get their knowledge (lore) from traveling and reading and hearing stories and songs, and traditionally in 2nd edition and lower, learned spells from scrolls like wizards

and as for the lvl 12 weapon, if it's vorpal, that's all the strength it needs to be powerful in NS4

RunarSterk · Post by **RunarSterk** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:23 pm

dond wrote:fighters are really good solo in pvm........i took out the queen bettle (lvl 18 cr mob) at lvl 5, and clear arachnids lair at lvl 7(5 dire spiders and the black widow at the same time!) by just rushing in and using healing kits.

What sort of build do you have? I just tried to do the arachnids lair with my lvl 8 fighter/barb, and while I can solo one of the dire spiders, two would probably kill me, and when I tried two dires and the widow I was toast. It took more than 6 rounds, because I pumped a bunch of healing kits, but that gave me very few swings to take at 'em. Plus, once my STR got down to 10 due to poision, those few swings were almost always misses. I could've probably survived longer if I'd carried more kits, but I still would've been toasted. I could take the queen beetle with this char (at 8 ), but just barely. I must be doing something very, very wrong here, huh? (PM me if you'd prefer... I'm not trying to argue balance or anything.. just hoping to learn.)

dond · Post by **dond** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:35 pm

RunarSterk wrote:
dond wrote:fighters are really good solo in pvm........i took out the queen bettle (lvl 18 cr mob) at lvl 5, and clear arachnids lair at lvl 7(5 dire spiders and the black widow at the same time!) by just rushing in and using healing kits.
What sort of build do you have? I just tried to do the arachnids lair with my lvl 8 fighter/barb, and while I can solo one of the dire spiders, two would probably kill me, and when I tried two dires and the widow I was toast. It took more than 6 rounds, because I pumped a bunch of healing kits, but that gave me very few swings to take at 'em. Plus, once my STR got down to 10 due to poision, those few swings were almost always misses. I could've probably survived longer if I'd carried more kits, but I still would've been toasted. I could take the queen beetle with this char (at 8 ), but just barely. I must be doing something very, very wrong here, huh? (PM me if you'd prefer... I'm not trying to argue balance or anything.. just hoping to learn.)

np at all.

currently it's a straight up lvl 7 fighter with lvl 5 gear from the smithy(except for the plate which I got from the orc chief). it has feats req to get wm (dodge mobility etc).

expertise is your best friend! also, im a duergar fighter, so i get immunity to poisons

i usually go with slashing/blunt res eq since that's what most mobs have (carry a pierce resist shield incase you run into a pvp'er with a short sword!)

the queen beetle is blud damage, so just use blud imm items. shouldn't be hard at all. just whack at her, and use healing kits when you're low. the only time she posed any sort of threat to me, was on a crit, but even then a couple healing kits was good enough.

as for the dire spiders (5 of them and the widow), i just carried a ton of healing kits +5, hit expertise and sat back, healing only when i need too.
i used as slash res plate, and blud resist shield i think for this one, seems to have help a ton

eventually they'll wear down, and when it's just 1 giant dire spider and the widow, you don't really need expertise anymore.

i also used a warhammer for all the fights.

now, the immunity to poisons is huge in the arachnids fight, so you might wanna get some endurance pots, or better yet, have a cleric tag along with you

Alexiagold · Post by **Alexiagold** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:36 pm

So is that with or without the vorpal scythe you found while playing with your high level mage char?

Vorpal Scythe? Please oh please tell me where you found/heard of this. I've never seen a scythe with anything cool, the best I've gotten is an imbuned Mithril Scythe, which I can't use till 16. Yes I know about the equip bug, but I don't use it, because I don't need it and its a bug/exploit. (same reason I almost never use darkness). With the one vorpal weapon I have found, trust me, almost no one is going to be using it, since its the oddest of all weapons

.

I'm using all avendall store bought stuff, or stuff my fighter found herself from Yuanti. I'm pretty sure I didn't even mule money to my fighter. So yea, my fighter is a crappy build to, I'm already replacing her with a newer better build, of course I'm keeping the Scyther because I'm already a master craftsman in exotic, and will be the next level soon I believe (might need to level a tad first). If you can't handle the giants, work on your build, a good build should have enough ac easy to totally tank them, and they have crappy AC so you'll still hit more than not. That's really all a fighter needs, high AC, which is easy to get with all the AC gear in this mod.

powerferret · Post by **powerferret** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:49 pm

oh no.....not a vorpal whip! >_<

YelloweFriday · Post by **YelloweFriday** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:56 pm

More then likely it's a sling that throws vorpal bullets. How many people use slings here?

DrakhanValane · Post by **DrakhanValane** » Thu May 06, 2004 11:48 pm

I do. Not vorpal ones, though.

RunarSterk · Post by **RunarSterk** » Fri May 07, 2004 2:04 am

dond wrote:expertise is your best friend! also, im a duergar fighter, so i get immunity to poisons

Aha! Yes, I think I would have a decent chance if it wasn't for the poison. Thanks, maybe I don't have a completely screwed up char after all.

AuTEC · Post by **AuTEC** » Fri May 07, 2004 3:05 am

I remember reading somewhere that sorcs should be nerfed so that mages become more prominent....

To that I say FOOEY!!!

I don't understand why more people aren't using more wizards....

One of the most fundamental things that a mage brings to the table is.... Intelligence... Intelligence is ALOT more useful than Charisma.

What will high intelligence give you? It will grant you the ability to put extra points into spot and listen... Having problems getting sneak attacked as a sorcerer by a pesky annoying HIPS guy? You wouldn't have that problem as a wizard!

High intelligence also adds to your spellcraft... And other more useful abilities.

And last but not least... if you're not planning on playing a pure wizard... what are you going to do with all that int. After 20 or so levels of wizard you can start taking skill based classes (bard, rogue, and others) and really have a strong all-around character... I know the cranks in the heads of the sorcerer complainers are now cranking!

Wizards are great! If you can see the possibilities!

-AuTEC

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Fri May 07, 2004 4:51 am

Not to mention that Wizards get a crap load more feats than sorc's.
I think they get just as many as a fighter, if not they do atleast get more than any other class besides the fighter.

Æ · Post by Æ » Fri May 07, 2004 7:00 am

Yeah I've never made a sorc in any D&D game, my mages have always been wizards, they're so much better. They get all that stuff you guys mentioned (yeah 1 bonus feat every two levels like a fighter) AND they can learn any spell they can get their hands on a scroll for }: )

(corrected)