Two-Handed Weapon Specialization

Post by **LinuxPup** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:41 pm

How about giving players the chance to improve their ability to fight with a two-handed weapon (two-sided and normal). So if a player wanted to go down the path of two-handed weapons and gain special powers, they lose their ability to ever equip a shield again.

The damage bonus might be:

+1 physical damage per character level or per every other character level... the same type of damage from bard song and cleric buffs... which shows up as bludgeoning, but is actually the damage type of the weapon equipped.

I think the damage bonus should not be related to the weapon, but rather be a bonus that is given to the player... because medium weapons are two-handed weapons for small stature folk.

Pre-requisite would be Epic Weapon Focus in a two-handed weapon, and the bonuses would apply to the two-handed weapon(s) you have epic weapon focus in.

I'm not a believer in giving AC boosts on two-handed weapons... the whole point is to sacrifice AC, immunities, and resistance for pure damage.

frogofpeace · Post by **frogofpeace** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:22 pm

Related to this, could there be a way to use parry with a two-handed weap to increase your relative defense? Something like +1 AC with 5 parry ranks ...

Post by **LinuxPup** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:46 pm

Or maybe, if the character has gone for the two-weapon specialization bonus, the parry skill goes towards damage. So the total parry (modified) divided by 3 is the amount of extra damage or something.

I don't think parry should increase AC though... two-handed weapon folks *should* be getting hit a lot more if they aren't able to kill their opponent quick enough.

If there were a parry bonus to AC it should apply to all melee folks, not just two-handed weapon wielders, and it should be pretty low.

Is there a +20 bonus damage limit like there is with attack?

disastro · Post by **disastro** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:27 pm

LinuxPup wrote: I don't think parry should increase AC though... two-handed weapon folks *should* be getting hit a lot more if they aren't able to kill their opponent quick enough.

it would have to be a lot of damage in order to make killing fast enough after about 30th level. dwarves have A LOT of hit points and hit VERY hard. lots of planars are immune to crits. it would have to be so much damage that it would become a problem for pvp (if you're dealing enough damage to routinely take down 1,000+ hp dwarf in a few swings, you will pwn most builds in pvp. and if you cant take mobs down in a few swings you will die without the ability to switch to shield.).

the "no shield ever" idea seems nice but i can not imagine any buff that would make it worthwhile to give up the shield option in this mod (you're giving up 25% immunity to a physical damage type AND usually an elemental type, plus dr 20/-).

TheStoneOne · Post by **TheStoneOne** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:21 am

hehehe was about to make a post along theses lines.

My idea and i know disastro said he dosent like ac boost for these wpns but anyways my idea is :-

perhaps give lvl 30 dbl weapons and maybe even 2 handed ones a +3 dodge ac property and give the lvl 40 ones a +5 or 6. these numbers of course could be anything decided appon maybe +2 at 30/+4 at 40 ??

Now if u think about this we all know that the 5/- or even 10/- bludge etc never ever comes close to matching a shield and neither would these bonus but they might just encourage players to have a go at a dire mace etc toon. I mean a +6 tower shield gives you a lot of immunities and ac (9) and u still get good damage while the dbl wpns axe/sword/mace all have damage of many 1 handed wpns 1d8 lol.

even by giving them +6 ac at lvl 40 your still losing at least 3 ac and some damage soaking potential all in exchange for what looks cool really

becaause the crit rngers are not as good as rapiers etc and the damage is not that much better its mostly the same.

Anyways just an idea something maybe to think about ?

Blystos Re · Post by **Blystos Re** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:14 pm

In my opinion, adding a dodge modifier to a 2-hander is kind of cheesy. Taking a 2-hand or 2-sided weapon on means you're up for the challenge of staying alive without the extra protection of a shield. These big weapons do more damage at the sacrifice of protection, so it's balanced already.

And yes, my main toon is a scyther, so I'm not just complaining so someone else doesn't become more uber than me.

As I believe someone else mentioned earlier, if you want to stay alive with a 2-sided/handed weapon, take epic toughness and damage reduction feats. Otherwise, there won't be anyone on the server that uses a shield in pretty short order.

TheStoneOne · Post by **TheStoneOne** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:37 pm

Blystos i may not have been 100% clear in my post i was mostly talking about two bladed sword, two bladed axe and Dire mace.

a true 2 handed wpn dooes more damage and or has better crit rnges i agree with you but the 2 bladed ones are never used becaue not only do they have loss of shield AC but the same damage and crit ranges as normal one handed wpns.

two bladed sword is 1d8/1d8 19-20/X2
bouble axe is 1d8/1d8 20/x3
and the worst the Dire mace is 1d8/1d8 20/X2

my idea was to apply only to the lvl 30 an above forms of these 3 weapons.

basically looking at the stats for these 3 wpns the only there the same as single handed wpns and i just thought to encourage there use a +2 at 30 and +4 at 40 would not make everyone run out and start using them exclusively aas a lot of ppl do with the rapier

was just an idea because it a bit boring seeing the standard line up of wpns over and over and i felt ppl should be slightly encouraged/ even rewarded a tiny bit for thinking outside the box.

in the end even at lvl 40 4ac is not going to unbalance the server is it ? your still losing 5 for having no shield and the damage is not uber

disastro · Post by **disastro** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:13 pm

Blystos Re wrote:Taking a 2-hand or 2-sided weapon on means you're up for the challenge of staying alive without the extra protection of a shield. These big weapons do more damage at the sacrifice of protection, so it's balanced already.

what i've seen is that these weapon do a bit more damage at the expense of A LOT of defense. you do more damage overall over time with a shield, simply because you can run into packs instead of running away (or waiting for a rez because you got chain-critted to death, something that epic damage reduction/toughness feats dont really help you with.)

i understand the idea of trading defense for damage, its just that the trade is a losing one at this point. sure you can have fun shieldless, as long as you understand that you're simply gimpier than shielded toons in most pve situations post amazons.

Mythri Wolfwood · Post by **Mythri Wolfwood** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:33 pm

I don't have any high-level 2-handed or dual-wielding toons, but I have grouped with some who were very durable. One toon, a BB toon by the name of Larry T. Lobster, I grouped with was using a double-bladed weapon. He seemed more than capable of soloing Dwarves. And, I do seem to recall him being able to take quite a few hits. Unfortunately, parry isn't a very effective skill to use for defense. Otherwise, I could see an argument for boosting a double-blader's or dual-wielder's parry skill, making things interesting by utilizing defense other than simply AC.

The comparison between using a shield and going the 2-handed/double-bladed/dual-wielding route reminds me of the comparison between strength vs. dex builds. My strength builds do a bit more damage, but ultimately, they have lower AC than my dex builds. Given some of the new monsters introduced have AB in the 50's, if not higher, I don't see many strength-based builds doing well against them. Sure, there might be a couple of tweaked out strength builds that could go toe-to-toe, but it's just like the dual-wielders and double-bladers - you won't find too many that fall into this category. IIRC, using double-bladed items gives you more attacks (similar to dual-wielding). So, like strength builds, it's a matter of more offense vs. more defense.

EDIT: Replaced the vague reference to Fricebottle's toon with the proper name.

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:47 pm

Mytrhi that was me, Larry T. Lobster. Possibly the only toon to use a Double Axe.

Blystos Re · Post by **Blystos Re** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:32 pm

TheStoneOne wrote:perhaps give lvl 30 dbl weapons and maybe even 2 handed ones a +3 dodge ac property and give the lvl 40 ones a +5 or 6. these numbers of course could be anything decided appon maybe +2 at 30/+4 at 40 ??

Well... Kinda seems like you were talking about both there. My mistake...I guess...

mgrjebbo · Post by **mgrjebbo** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:27 pm

instead of all the scripting it would take to give a *special power* just put some more damage on the 2 handed weapons and call it good. the harm to ac / bonus damage ration needs a bit of tweaking IMO. but nothing as drastic as special abilitys.

i made an earth gen 2 hander, still got cut up just do to low resistance after earth ability dropped. and forget about elemental damage, your toast.

seriouslynow · Post by **seriouslynow** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:26 am

Seems ages ago that someone mentioned limiting the bonuses on shields to limit the disparity between using them vs. 2hander/double weapons. +6 towers are a hefty opportunity cost for sure.

mgrjebbo · Post by **mgrjebbo** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:31 am

aye but shields need to be where there at for fighters and other types that dont rely on a dex bonus. i think the answer has to be in the damage bonus from the 2 handed weapons.

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:59 am

Perhaps giving 2-handed weapons an actual parry bonus. Thus giving parry a better chance to work when you have a larger weapon like a two handed weapon. I personally don't like the skill because AC can exceed parry bonuses thus making the skill somewhat useless but with a large enough bonus on 2-handed weapons it might actually become usefull. Would love to see someone specialized in a quarterstaff actually be able to parry better... ect..

MLoki