Low Magic DOES NOT mean no magic

[JesterOI]

Three words: Death Ward Potion.

WOH! HE CAN COUNT!!!

[Æ]

Wise words from an Okie }: )

You're now my new favoite Okie Okienaut, at least until i'm done with thsi cigarette.

That all made perfect sense to me...

And I see a trend here, everyone arguing for balancing the classes are putting forth very coherent and reasonable arguments and offering great ideas about solutions. Those who don't want change however have little to say other than insulting others for their opinions and have few well formulated premises in theri arguments.

I think that the Dev's, DM's and even most players are not fools and can clearly see the logic of these arguments and anyone arguing against it is just trying to gain an advantage or simply to be contradictory and argumentative and insulting

At this point, I don't see how anyone could argue against so many good reasons for change (and, again, change is the reason for this beta test), at least not without looking a total fool. And the Dev's should by now see the apparent and obvious problem and have plenty of ideas about solutions by now

Jester: that was unnessesary and childish, if you and sheep are going to keep spamming the forums with insults against other people, I suggest you find some place to argue with other people like you who are entertained by bickering and disrespecting eachother... people like me who insist on all people respecting eachother, will not tolerate people constantly being jerks to eachother.... Act like a caring, sensitive human being and stop trying to hurt other people's feelings. Again, I'm really not at all emotionally effected by all this petty BS, but well, I hate people like you with nothing better to do than try to annoy others

Keep posting your one-line answers and trying to piss people off, It won't work with me, so you're wasting your time trying to crack a greater will than your own.... and it'll just get you banned from the forums in the long run

[JesterOI]

Lighten up, I do it all in... Jest? <does Dr. Evil pinky thing>

Oh, and don't be hatin...

[Æ]

Not everyone will take it that way, have some consideration for other people's feelings

[Dyson]

re: death ward pots...has anyone actually made one? Had a cleric try it today and no go.

[mumoogaipan]

I was reading the post which Joran wrote and I was thinking about initial intent of the NS4 build. First, i think that the purpose of the game is to have a setting which fosters a party mentality. Secondly, the game has been designed to foster PvP through interfaction warfare.

This being the case, i think that a lot of the mentality of "my fighter vs. your sorcerer" falls apart, why? Because given the two goals of NS4 you should have factions fighting factions in parties. I encourage everyone to go back and look at the alliances between factions and you will find that within each faction alliance there is an accessiblity to create a party with mages and fighting classes. Thus, you can combine mages and fighters to fight other mages and fighters from other factions. This discovery means that in a 1on1 PvP there is an inherent disadvantage which can be overcome with factional alliances and parties to balance out each others characteristics. This is what I was getting at with my other post. I dont want a PM DD in one character but to have those two types of characters in the same party to fight some other type of party.

Lastly, Think about it for a second. What D&D game from the pencil and paper version has had parties with just one type of character who fights only one type of enemy throughout the campaign. This is the type of scenario which is created when posters state "my fighter X cant hurt mage Y." In most D&D campaigns your party will have an amalgum of characters who compliment each other. You can see fighters alongside the ranks of sorcerers, or rogues, or even drow assassins. However the party is matched up in the PnP version of D&D, that party would have to fight a myriad of enemies. Sometimes the mage class was more equiped to handle the situation, but other times brute force was required. What i am saying is that people in NS4 should get together within their factional alliance and ally up so that parties are more diverse and more equipped to handle a broader range of encounter situations. For example, 4 fighters to go fight 4 sorcerers is not ingenuitive. But imagine the ability of a party with a Cleric, Sorcerer, Fighter, Barbarian to fight 4 sorcerers. I think the more diverse group would be able to handle the 4 sorcerers quite easily. This is of course assuming all things like lvls are equall. And this is just an example not necessarily truth or fact.

All i am asking is that people explore the possibilities of creating diverse faction parties in order to maintain the goals and wants of the Devs of NS4 before we start to change the mechanics of NS4. Besides if we dont test evey available option to solve the solution then we might be fixing something which isnt broke

Just my thoughts

^_^ The Buddhist ^_^

[Æ]

the devs have also said that they want people to be able to solo when they want to as well... this way everyone is having fun playing the way they want to at the moment

personally, sometimes i want to party, sometimes i don't, and there's nothing wrong with either mood, i should be allowed to do both...
although it hasn't been an issue because i can't get any casters or anything to party with me, a fighter (who takes some of the xp) because why would they party with me when they could do fine alone, with their summons (who don't take any xp anymore)?

and partying is all well and good when you're on a mission for fun, but get's you nowhere leveling... and usually when you see someone soloing, it's so they can level

finally, the lone wolf character 'soloing' isn't necessarily not roleplaying or out of character or not interacting with the people he comes across... in a rich and diverse world, there would be alot of smaller groups (like the guilds), existing in and out of the factions, as well as loner and mercenary types with their own goals, existing in and out of the factions, partying only when it serves their own goals or that of their guild (not the goals of the faction)

[dond]

the devs have also said that they want people to be able to solo when they want to as well... this way everyone is having fun playing the way they want to at the moment

personally, sometimes i want to party, sometimes i don't, and there's nothing wrong with either mood, i should be allowed to do both...
although it hasn't been an issue because i can't get any casters or anything to party with me, a fighter (who takes some of the xp) because why would they party with me when they could do fine alone, with their summons (who don't take any xp anymore)?

and partying is all well and good when you're on a mission for fun, but get's you nowhere leveling... and usually when you see someone soloing, it's sos they can level

maybe it's your attitude? do you insult people in the game repeatedly? do you ninja loot? how's your game ettiquette? i have no problem finding a group and i'm playing in 2 factions and have been across all the servers...

maybe change your style of play? how exactly do you go around getting a group?

[Æ]

I wouldn't be in one of the friendlier (except for Chair lol, but he left) old neversummer guilds if I had bad game etiquette...

I only insult anyone who insults me or a friend

And if you played NS3, you would know that i was one of the most generous people around

I don't take, I give, so i'm certainly not a ninja looter...

And I shout, "anyone want to go kill stuff with a level 17 fighter?" or something like that }: )... sometimes I'll get another melee'er to join me, but even that rarely, and never a caster... they do everything alone... this is of course when none of my guild members are on

[Chimaira]

And the problem with that is some people will just carry around 3 tower shields to counter every damage type.

Right, like Jester said - if you want to lug around an extra 45 pounds like that, go right ahead. Fortunately, that option is not very feasible for a mage, limiting their ability to become highly resistant to attacks.

I can carry 130+ pounds, Im a mage.
What else do I need to carry? Maybe I find some nice armor, I just drop the current armor im using and equip it. I can identify, so thats not the problem. If I cant identify an armor it means its such an incredibly uber armor, and Ill happily drop some of my tower shields and be "Vulnerable" to 1 melee type while running back to the nearest neutral or friendly town to identify. If its not that good and the enchantments are mostly not usefull to me, wow I just buy back my 2 125k shields. Big deal, I got like 5 mil in total without even bothering to loot, if I bother to loot a while I can actually get way more. Your all taking the standard mage build as an example when trying to balance: Low AC, cant carry anything, very dead when unbuffed. Who says a mage starts out with 8 strength? I can already think of a reason a sorcerer would start out with 13 strength other then being able to carry 3 tower shields and 2 armors. Why would I bother saying why anyway? The response will probably be something like "Lets nerf divine shield!".

AND who says tower shields are used? Currently the items are so gimped nobody even needs a heavy armor still spell mage to be basicly immune to fighters, you can just save up a regular feat and 3 epic feats and use a small shield. 5% casting failure doesnt bother me 1 bit...well except when that mantle fails when a bigby is flying at me...Well yahoo even tho youll die once in a while for such a reason, it still takes another caster to kill a caster since all those lovely casters are still able to cast DC 30 FoDs and DC 35 implosions and actually have quite an easy time since theres no save gear around, only damage immune and resist gear.

And then we still have clerics, whoever makes a cleric that uses heavy armor and starts with 8 strength doesnt even deserve to cast implosion and kill a fighter 60% of the time. And it still happens, and not a thing the fighter can do about it.

Giving someone to ability to use an item immune to spells just cause hes a lvl 40 fighter will only make gameplay more gimped then it already is. Immunities dont belong in a PvP based PW, this server and a few of the LOTR servers so far have been the only ones Ive seen it in. A lvl 40 fighter shouldnt be strong, it wasnt meant to go level 40 fighter. What does a barbarian gain? Epic damage reduction, terrifying rage(THAT needs to be fixed, but more important now is the fact the barbarian wont even do damage even IF it worked). But a barbarian, aswell as a fighter, is a plain class. Plain starting classes arent supposed to be strong, the only reason this is true for clerics/mages is because caster PrCs would be too strong, and so theyre not in the game. A Fighter/WM that has a 10% chance to die on a FoD, and a 20% chance to be held for 3 rounds pitted against a mage without any immunity or resist to physical actually stands a chance. If he DOES die on a FoD, tough luck since thats the casters advantage that he has a chance to kill you when you fail the save, but now the sole reason he goes splat on a FoD is cause the items are all favored towards casters.

If you want to encourage partying, this isnt the way. The way to encourage partying would be to make monsters plain strong, and get alot of XP when you can kill them. So far CR 18 giants with 17 fort aint a problem for a lvl 16 mage with a DC 29 FoD. While a lvl 16 fighter doesnt normally have alot of trouble that giant just happens to be like 20% slash immune and 10/- resistant, so it takes him alot longer to kill it then the sorcerer. And so the sorcerer lvls faster, and he sure aint using his leet 8 damage dealing mestils and 5 second lasting elemental shield to do it, nor does he need them to kill a fighter.

[Chimaira]

What about adding +1 uni saves for each +# and armor has on it?
Elite Steel would have +3 ac and +3 uni save...

Yes that would be a good change, there should also be other armors tho(So elite steel #2 would have +3 AC and +3 Discipline) available for those classes that do not need saving throws. These classes should still gain the advantage they get, but not in the way as "Thy must be 15 level CoT, or thy shall go splat on a Fod". The CoT should just be able to use other items since he doesnt need the ones with saving throw bonusses on them, NOT items with damage resistance and immunity, but skill points for instance.

[Bariagan]

I am curious, I keep on seeing people throwing around DC of 30 and 35 for spells. The highest I have ever been able to get is 29, and this was with a level 40 cleric with epic spell focus and 26 wisdom. I created him in the tool set as a test. This means that fighters, especially at epic levels, are easily able to save against spells. Is it only possible for mages to get beyond 29 or am I missing something.

[Gil-Este]

A Sun Elf Wizard. Lets make him say level 24. I've maxed his intelligence at every level so that comes out to 26.

Base DC: 10
Level 9 Spell: +9
Intelligence Modifier: +8
Epic Spell Focus: +6
Total DC: 10+9+8+6=33

Thats a 33 right there. And thats assuming he is naked and without any intelligence boosting gear.

[JesterOI]

Any know if the saving throws vs spell from spellcraft require HARD points into spellcraft like tumble requires hard points into it for the ac bonus?

If spellcraft doesn't require the hard points I would suggest that armors have +5 spellcraft on them for each + to ac bonus. This would make them stronger against spells, but not other effects.

Just a thought for the devs.

[dond]

you can get spellcraft on a fighter.......rings (they have no class restrictions)