I agree that +10 is a little much, considering that the cap is +12.
+8 at the very most and no more.
When is enough enough?
aye ...i have to agree here as well, only because of the existing cap...JesterOI wrote:I agree that +10 is a little much, considering that the cap is +12.
+8 at the very most and no more.
enhancement bonuses higher than +6 (or +7 at the very most) are plenty high.....
Fatzo
Resident Glutton and Hand of the Legendary Brethren
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http://brethren.mygameguild.com/main.asp
Resident Glutton and Hand of the Legendary Brethren
http://thelegendarybrethren.forumsplace.com/
http://brethren.mygameguild.com/main.asp
Poet, your missing the point. Thank everyone else who actualy paid attention is class today there will be no test. Poet i would like you to stay after, obviously you need some help with the material.
edit- The point isnt that the devs and dms arent appreciated or working hard. The point is they are working TO HARD. The more work they do the more work they create for themselves in balance issues. In the end the majority of NS4 players play here because the gear isnt 3.5. Because it isnt uber. If it becomes a point where all gear maxes out your stats then whats the point of the build. You will just have uber and more uber.
There comes a point where you need to stop adding and prefect the material you have. I just think that point is here. And before anything over +8 goes onto the server.
The reason i say it may be or is too late for NS4 is because who in their right mide would be rude enought to ask the devs to remove all the gear they have added that is higher than +4. I personaly would like to see that happen, however i realize the work that went into adding said material and would not be so self rightous as to ask them to undo what they have done.
Rather i am just asking for nothing higher to be added. And that doesnt mean nothing new, just nothing higher. INstead of adding a +8 hammer why not add a +6 club? You know.
edit- The point isnt that the devs and dms arent appreciated or working hard. The point is they are working TO HARD. The more work they do the more work they create for themselves in balance issues. In the end the majority of NS4 players play here because the gear isnt 3.5. Because it isnt uber. If it becomes a point where all gear maxes out your stats then whats the point of the build. You will just have uber and more uber.
There comes a point where you need to stop adding and prefect the material you have. I just think that point is here. And before anything over +8 goes onto the server.
The reason i say it may be or is too late for NS4 is because who in their right mide would be rude enought to ask the devs to remove all the gear they have added that is higher than +4. I personaly would like to see that happen, however i realize the work that went into adding said material and would not be so self rightous as to ask them to undo what they have done.
Rather i am just asking for nothing higher to be added. And that doesnt mean nothing new, just nothing higher. INstead of adding a +8 hammer why not add a +6 club? You know.
well, the only way things will be taken into account is if more people give their honest and constructed opinions, so let us continue this for good or worse.....
i can see Jeans point very well, tho bropping to +4 would be a bit off the wall, and aye as it was said it would never happen....
tho , we are at a crucial point here, for example the crafted item details have been realeased but not yet implimented...and i must add -- the point at which we are at now seems to be very nice as is....
another already stated point about gear stats being so close to the peak: eventually we will reach a point of saturation -- for those of you who have played Diablo 2 online (on the non-ladder servers) you could easily recall a saturated market, where 1337 gear was easily available and purchasable ...and any noob with a minimal knowlege in building techniques could run up a formidable toon..... it would sadden me if somthing like that were to happen on ns4
i can see Jeans point very well, tho bropping to +4 would be a bit off the wall, and aye as it was said it would never happen....
tho , we are at a crucial point here, for example the crafted item details have been realeased but not yet implimented...and i must add -- the point at which we are at now seems to be very nice as is....
another already stated point about gear stats being so close to the peak: eventually we will reach a point of saturation -- for those of you who have played Diablo 2 online (on the non-ladder servers) you could easily recall a saturated market, where 1337 gear was easily available and purchasable ...and any noob with a minimal knowlege in building techniques could run up a formidable toon..... it would sadden me if somthing like that were to happen on ns4
Fatzo
Resident Glutton and Hand of the Legendary Brethren
http://thelegendarybrethren.forumsplace.com/
http://brethren.mygameguild.com/main.asp
Resident Glutton and Hand of the Legendary Brethren
http://thelegendarybrethren.forumsplace.com/
http://brethren.mygameguild.com/main.asp
I think our problem is that NS4 is to old, and with that I mean that Joran, Lokey and DD did a great job in designing NS4 back in 2002 (as i recall). After the planning and most of the balancing/building was done, HotU came out and changed the whole game by giving another 20 levels. We have done what we could to addapt to this ever since, and I'm not going to hide behind that excuse to much more, because its been like that for close to 3 years now.
They could have gone back and started to redo all the items, spells and creatures again to balancing it, however they had worked hard for a long time and needed a break, and then there was the whole *soon* issue that needed to be solved too.
As you recall the module still didn't have areas for the epics, so when the new dev team took over (read mostly Flailer at the start) they had the option to figure out how to rebalance everything (items, creatures, spells) or continue the build and follow the line that was put down from the start.
This should be taken as a explanation of why things are what they are, and not an excuse or attack at the devs (I'm one of them afterall). I see mgrjebbo's point, and I agree that things have changed quite a bit since we had the level 25 cap, which proberly is the time where the server was the most balanced anyway.
And now for some stats to make the illusion that there is some meaning to this post
We have a little over 1100 creatures that would need to be rebalanced, however before we could do that we would need to rebalance the items. We currently have about 3500 items that the players can use. While we balance those 2 things we would have to redo the spells once again and you all know how many spells there is......
With the current module, and NS5 hitting the toolset soon too, I don't think item balancing will get as much focus (as it might deserve)
They could have gone back and started to redo all the items, spells and creatures again to balancing it, however they had worked hard for a long time and needed a break, and then there was the whole *soon* issue that needed to be solved too.
As you recall the module still didn't have areas for the epics, so when the new dev team took over (read mostly Flailer at the start) they had the option to figure out how to rebalance everything (items, creatures, spells) or continue the build and follow the line that was put down from the start.
This should be taken as a explanation of why things are what they are, and not an excuse or attack at the devs (I'm one of them afterall). I see mgrjebbo's point, and I agree that things have changed quite a bit since we had the level 25 cap, which proberly is the time where the server was the most balanced anyway.
And now for some stats to make the illusion that there is some meaning to this post
We have a little over 1100 creatures that would need to be rebalanced, however before we could do that we would need to rebalance the items. We currently have about 3500 items that the players can use. While we balance those 2 things we would have to redo the spells once again and you all know how many spells there is......
With the current module, and NS5 hitting the toolset soon too, I don't think item balancing will get as much focus (as it might deserve)
only in a sense. the highest level drops have been implemented, so if the highest level crafted gear is to be better (which is clearly a good idea) there's only really one way to go...kingfatzo wrote:tho , we are at a crucial point here, for example the crafted item details have been realeased but not yet implimented...
Anyway, IMO the reason casters have fallen behind in recent months isn't directly because of the gear, it's because the level range has increased right up to 40 and the default implementation of most spells only improves them up to 20 caster levels (with the exception of the fixed +5 cap on most DR spells, which is just unfortunate).
The solution is to fix bioware's badly planned spell system so that it scales decently to 40 levels (to which there are several very constructive threads devoted), then having gear that scales up to 40 levels isn't a problem any more.
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Flailer
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Heh - talk about expecting one thing and getting another....
We're listening and talking amongst ourselves.
So, more feedback - if you had to have caps on things (all the way up to level 40), what would they be? Abilities, skills, AC, enhancements, etc?
And again, enhancements on weapons don't bother me that much since we could change DR levels on spells in a flash.
In the interest of getting good feedback, I'm going to go ahead and lay our cards on the table so to speak. I'm not making any promises on retrofitting the whole mod, but if good quality feedback can come out of this, that's great.
See here:
http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns4/viewt ... 0632#60632
We're listening and talking amongst ourselves.
So, more feedback - if you had to have caps on things (all the way up to level 40), what would they be? Abilities, skills, AC, enhancements, etc?
And again, enhancements on weapons don't bother me that much since we could change DR levels on spells in a flash.
In the interest of getting good feedback, I'm going to go ahead and lay our cards on the table so to speak. I'm not making any promises on retrofitting the whole mod, but if good quality feedback can come out of this, that's great.
See here:
http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns4/viewt ... 0632#60632
Flailer
NS Developer
None of us is as dumb as all of us.
NS Developer
None of us is as dumb as all of us.
I like the idea of seldom used weapons haveing a higher Enhancement bonus then your standard 1 handed sword or axe. +5 or +6 for most weapons is fine with the occasional "Uber" item (especially some of the more exotic ones) seems reasonable especially if DR for spells can be "ramped up". Stat bonuses over +6 or +8 make other stat increases practically useless which I would not like to see. The key here is not allowing the Clerics, Druids and Mages of the world obsolete by taking away the benifits they provide other characters and turning them into pure combat casters. Stoneskin and Greater Magic Weapon have already been taken out of the buff string in epic levels, so lets not lose the stat boosts as well. That is one thing that I really enjoy on this server over 3.5 is that spell buffs make a huge difference when fighting mobs. If you take that away then it does begin to feel too much like 3.5. As much as I would love to start pumping +10 Dex boots as soon as the new crafting gets implemented I feel that scaling things back a bit may be the best answer. Perhaps adding other bonuses to these items can improve them without ramping up the stats.
MLoki
MLoki
You know I dont see a full item revamp really as doable. The mobs would have to be completely reworked as well and cr adjusted since they use the same items.
Putting caps on planar gear is fine but they already have caps. The +6 +7 is the cap and stats dont goto +10. Ac is capped as well.
The other problem is that redoing items requires full wipes on both servers which I think at this point is not a good idea.
Putting caps on planar gear is fine but they already have caps. The +6 +7 is the cap and stats dont goto +10. Ac is capped as well.
The other problem is that redoing items requires full wipes on both servers which I think at this point is not a good idea.
Re: When is enough enough?
these changes (http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns4/viewt ... 6&start=75), although appreciated and cool, are really turning me off from NS4. you can get +10 in every stat, a +8 weapon, +6 AC per armor piece. the only thing missing from NS3.5 is the uber damage and resists now.TheBestDeception wrote:Being a relatively low magic world is one of the things that made NS4 such a great PW to play in, as it allowed different builds to do different things.mgrjebbo wrote:I fear that NS4 is turning into NS3.5 very fast. Its a slippery slope and soon enough it will no longer be about the build.
oh and not to mention the "diversity" we will be seeing with the new changes to spells.
20base wisdom, +4wis book, +10wis from lvls, +10wis from feats, +12wis through item/buffs = 56wisdom
Epic spell DC
15+ (40/2) + 23wisdom mod +6 epic focus = 64DC Implosion
Only for PC, boost and bigger boost for pure classes
and yes thats before any pure class bonuses and without auto quicken, but you can drop 2DC for autoquicken easily. tack on a friendly bard for +5 spell DC...and you get to kill as many people per rest as you have lvl 9spell slots
this, sorry if I offend anyone, is worse than NS3.5
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Psycho Banny and all his forms
Psycho Banny and all his forms
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JesterOI
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If the +1dc/2 or 3 lvls were implimented it should look like:
WIS: 20base + 10lvls + 10feats + 12bonus + 4book = 56.
Current Cleric Implosion DC: base10 + 9splvl + 6focus + 23wisMod = 48DC @ casterlvl 39.
With +1dc / 3 epic caster levels it would be 54DC @ caster lvl 39
With +1dc / 2 epic caster levels it would be 58DC @ caster lvl 40
This:
Epic spell DC
15+ (caster level/2) + ability modifier
Only for PC, boost and bigger boost for pure classes
I thought was talking about Epic Spells, Hellball, Greater Ruin, etc.
WIS: 20base + 10lvls + 10feats + 12bonus + 4book = 56.
Current Cleric Implosion DC: base10 + 9splvl + 6focus + 23wisMod = 48DC @ casterlvl 39.
With +1dc / 3 epic caster levels it would be 54DC @ caster lvl 39
With +1dc / 2 epic caster levels it would be 58DC @ caster lvl 40
This:
Epic spell DC
15+ (caster level/2) + ability modifier
Only for PC, boost and bigger boost for pure classes
I thought was talking about Epic Spells, Hellball, Greater Ruin, etc.
Last edited by JesterOI on Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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