What kind of weaponmaster ?

[havelot]

I dont think thers any way around it

AFAIK, this is correct. Your AB dual-wielding at best will always be 2 less than it would be single-wielding (WF and EWF notwithstanding).

[CrazyJ]

Everybody uses kamas, booooring.

More bludge, please!

[Binkyuk]

not really, warhammer WMs were fairly common pre-wipe. It'd probably still be my first choice if i didn't go for a two-handed weapon.

some figures for you:

Code: Select all

AC-AB   normal  medx2   lightx2 kama    kamax2
1       2.5     3.05    3.65    3.85    4.8
2       2.3     2.75    3.35    3.5     4.4
3       2.1     2.5     3.05    3.15    4
4       1.9     2.25    2.75    2.85    3.6
5       1.7     2       2.5     2.55    3.25
6       1.5     1.75    2.25    2.25    2.9
7       1.35    1.5     2       2       2.55
8       1.2     1.3     1.75    1.75    2.25
9       1.05    1.1     1.5     1.5     1.95
10      0.9     0.9     1.3     1.3     1.65
11      0.75    0.7     1.1     1.1     1.4
12      0.65    0.5     0.9     0.9     1.15
13      0.55    0.4     0.7     0.75    0.9
14      0.45    0.3     0.5     0.6     0.7
15      0.35    0.2     0.4     0.45    0.5
16      0.25    0.1     0.3     0.35    0.3
17      0.2     0       0.2     0.25    0.2
18      0.15    0       0.1     0.15    0.1
19      0.1     0       0       0.1     0
20      0.05    0       0       0.05    0

the left hand column is difference between AB and AC, the right columns are average hits per round. Some mobs might be in the top half, but any decent PC your level will be at least in the bottom half, if not the bottom quarter (lower down the chart = better AC).

Obviously, dual wielding medium weapons is a bad idea, so I'd drop any dual rapier WM ideas right now.
The big problem is that if your enemy has good AC and you only hit on a 16+, the difference in expected hits when dual wielding is really quite small. Add to this the fact that the AC-AB value is used *again* when determining whether you crit and you realise why I say the -2 for dual wielding is really quite important for a WM. Then on top of that you lose the DR and AC of a shield or the damage of a two-hander.

Though of course if you're a monk you can't use a shield or two-hand anyway, so it's not so much of an issue. A more interesting comparison is the dual kama monk with the normal 4 attack fighter type. The hit ratio difference isn't as big as might you think lower down the chart, add to that that the kama has a rubbish crit profile and you see why i'm not a big fan of monk/WMs.

[CrazyJ]

i'm not a big fan of monk/WMs.

Kama Kaze is sitting in Ave, slowly losing his gear as it's needed for other characters.

:-/

[Mythri Wolfwood]

From a PvM standpoint, would it be better to dual-wield? I've got a Ftr/Monk/WM in the works whose AB tops off at the low 60's. With a -5 penalty to each successive attack, it seems only the first 2 or 3 attacks will hit against epic mobs. With dual-wielding, I get roughly twice the number of hits. From a damage per hit point of view, looking at the higher end single vs. 2-handed weapons, the 2-handed vs. single-handed damages aren't exactly 2:1, crits aside. So, would it be a good idea to go with dual-wielding in PvM, or does the 2-handed path mean more damage as far as damage reduction is concerned? I suppose if damage reduction were factored in, the 2-handed path, even without crits, may end up doing about twice, maybe more, damage.

[kgb]

@ Mythri: Don't know why you are copping a -5 for every successive attack if using Kama's unless you're in armor. Normal monk progression is -3 using kamas or unarmed.

[Mythri Wolfwood]

@ kgb, I was thinking about weapons in general, but you're right about monks and kamas. Still, from a PvM standpoint, are kamas viable considering the (from what i've read) large number of creatures that are resistant to slash? Anyone with an epic kama build able to shed some light on this?

[CrazyJ]

Highest level kamas with ele damage are only +4 so you're lacking against creatures with DR.

You do not do as much damage, especially with a dexer kama/WM, so if they have good resists you are in trouble.

I've done better with my pure monk than with my str-based kama WM.

[Mythri Wolfwood]

Thanks for the insight, CrazyJ.

Hmmm, if Binkyuk is right, I might start a Ftr 6/Paladin 6/WM 28 2-handed, Divine Might build focusing in Spear, Great Flail, and Greatsword. From a PvM standpoint, crits are a moot point as it seems most epic mobs are immune to crits. 2-Handed do very good damage with or without crits (1.5 STR to damage is nice). Add to that some unresistable damage from Divine Might and there's some damage potential there.

[kgb]

Depends on your build really. you can bypass any shortcomings in your wpns if you're a 15th cleric by taking Greater Wpn - turning a +4 Storm Kama into a +5 Storm Kama!

The Storm Kama is nice because it has a nice elemental bonus bypassing DR. It is a formidable wpn if used right.

Yes there is a hell of a lot of slash resist on the server yet there is also a bit of bludgeon as well. Monks have a tougher time than most damaging giants for instance but on the planes there are some advantages. I have found using fists on earth plane for example more effective than kamas.

There is also a lot to be said in mixing a monk's wpns up by using the kama in the main hand and something like a shortsword or tempest mace in the other to bypass a resistance type.

[Bmonkey]

take 15 paladin for +5 gmw and holysword , which works on kama if ns hasnt changed it.

[Binkyuk]

I might start a Ftr 6/Paladin 6/WM

Heh, I didn't want to spill the beans on this build, but as you mention it. I had a pally/WM pre-wipe and she rocked. Weapon enchantments (Bless Weapon + Ki Strike is devastating vs undead) and (new and improved) divine might, with 20 BAB and a bit of AB buffing from Prayer spells and the occasional Smite for fun. I highly recommend it, but requires careful feat planning to maximise your pally levels and minimise your fighter, and probably a subrace (aasimar i imagine) as you need decent scores in all 6 stats.

I'd actually try for more paladin than 6. Even though you have the dispel resist of a potato, 2nd level pally spells are worth getting.

And you can be NC with it for fun.

[Mythri Wolfwood]

You make an interesting case for more levels, Binkyuk. I was planning on taking 28 levels of WM for the +7 to attack, which limits the levels of Fighter and Paladin that I can take.

I suppose, with the Paladin spells, I can take only 19 levels of WM and get the same AB with a boost from prayer. That leaves 15 levels of paladin and 5 levels of fighter. It'll be a tradeoff between a permanent +7 to attack, with some extra WM feats, or more paladin spells (and possible focus in Smites) and possibly some extra Fighter feats. One way leads to non-buff dependent build, the other leads to a somewhat buff-dependent build.

[Binkyuk]

actually you don't have to go too far on the paladin levels because you can get higher level spell slots from amulets, but unless you want to sacrifice a lot of nat ac you won't be able to cast level 2 spells, which are actually the most useful.

edit: i suppose another idea might be to take Extend Spell with one of those WM bonus feats and cast l2 spells extended into the l3 slots you get from amulets. a bit dodgier though IMO.

[VagaStorm]

@ kgb, I was thinking about weapons in general, but you're right about monks and kamas. Still, from a PvM standpoint, are kamas viable considering the (from what i've read) large number of creatures that are resistant to slash? Anyone with an epic kama build able to shed some light on this?

I've taken extra wepon feats with my monk to be able to use rapier and short sword on planar mobs that resist slashing dmg. Beeing able to switch betveen piers and dmg enabels me to do ok dmg agenst most planar mobs.