Word of Faith balance?

[CrazyJ]

How 'bout basing it on distance from caster's alignment (1 or 2 on a 3x3 grid) and scale the duration from that?

This also would make playing a Neutral character have a counterbalancing disadvantage (compared to being immune to smite evil/smite good)--in addition to some of their summons stinking horribly (gray gasbag).

[Death Dealer1]

i was under the impression that the blindness had no save...as i have never seen a save for the blindness. if you really want i can WoF spam Ddog's chars into death so you can see how affective it is. i guarantee you guys that my piddly caster cleric can dispatch in PvP alot more effective than PvM with this one spell.

why do you think every cleric out there starts out his fight with this one spell? its for the jump that it gives them. not to mention the fact all the cheesed out fighter/cleric/rogues out there that are still able to solo just about anything they come across.

[-BannyD-]

the only reason this issue matters to you IS because of your pvp vs us and the rest of LA...and if i may add, The DD used to use wof on their many raids against NS pre-wipe and we coped with it just like anyone else can.....if it bothers you that much, then keep your clerics close to you !

what better way to test a spell than fighting the things that use it most? if all the spell did was lower your vision, allow sneak attacks on you, and make it harder for you to hit..that would be find. But WoF drastically lowers the AC of the target. Im not sure what bioware setting makes this happen but being hit by AB rolls 20 less than your AC when you have both uncanny dodge and blind fight is a bit wrong. It is worse than being KD'd and easier to apply. I dont believe that effect can be removed so I am asking for something else to be done to the ease of applying that effect.

in theory , WoF can be 'dismissed' just as easily as a bigby.... click spell - bam -- gone.... BUT in reality, then again can it be dismissed as well as a BB --- NO , if i were to fail a bb save im screwed, whereas the WoF can always be removed providing i have the proper spell slotted -- Thus, mentioning BB and WoF in the same line seems silly...regardless of its AoE effect, a WoF can never be as effective as a bigby -providing the bigbied person fails the save...which is often the case with the well built mages on the server...

I was comparing current WoF with old Bigbys, the one that was guarenteed like WoF is, the one that was changed. Both effects are detrimental to your character but hey, Bigbys -does- have a save! You can avoid the effect on a round basis, normally costing the mage a lvl 9 slot to hault a single enemy for 6 seconds before it is removed, more if he is lucky or the target is weak against it. With word of faith, the entire screen of enemies is 'screwed' by one spell until it expires since they cannot do anything effectively but run.

I could see a combination of any of those three possibilities, but unless you find DeputyDog's characters and WoF them into oblivion, I doubt anything will be done with the spell.

Hmm...DD said he made a toon with 85ac and epic dodge. Lets test blinding it with WoF then beating on it with a couple people with 55ish ab, see how easy it is done.

[Celorn]

I think WoF is just fine the way it is... a very important support cleric spell, especially in the planes! If it's too much for you in PvP, then don't PvP ;] or have some r/m blindness spells handy, oh hell, how about round out your party with a cleric? ;]

How about a totally different solution? Instead of weakening PCs vs Mobs:

DEVS: since you are revamping crafting already, AND there are dismissal rods available in Arcane Crafting, why not add a remove blindness rod or wand??

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The grid thing seems interesting though...a way to punish the True Neutral cheesers -- but only a minor change should happen, like: same alignment blindness lasts 1 round, opposing alignment; 3 rounds, middle-distant alignment; 2 rounds, this way true neutral would only get a max of 2 rounds, and more dedicated good/evil could get 3 vs. their opposite corner or so, 2 to everyone else.

[-BannyD-]

I think WoF is just fine the way it is... a very important support cleric spell, especially in the planes! If it's too much for you in PvP, then don't PvP ;] or have some r/m blindness spells handy, oh hell, how about round out your party with a cleric? ;]

WoF is a bit more than a cleric support spell...it can make a bad cleric good. You do not need AB to hit someone whos blind and you do not need spell focuses to make that blind hit.

Editted for language. (Sparky)

[havelot]

if all the spell did was lower your vision, allow sneak attacks on you, and make it harder for you to hit..that would be find. But WoF drastically lowers the AC of the target. Im not sure what bioware setting makes this happen but being hit by AB rolls 20 less than your AC when you have both uncanny dodge and blind fight is a bit wrong.

Help me out here, as I'm a little confused. I just went though the changelog and could see no mention of WoF being changed (unless I simply missed it). So, I assume the blindness (the only effect of WoF on creatures level 12 or above) functions as described in the NWN wiki:

Blinded creatures have a 50% miss chance , –4 penalty to all attack rolls, discipline, hide, move silently, open lock, parry, pick pocket, set trap and tumble.

How this translates into a dramatic loss in AC (as opposed to an admittedly dramatic drop in offensive ability), I'm not sure. Are you saying this is an undocumented effect of the WoF spell?

[Gumppy]

oh for the love of god, here we go again.

Im so sick of this BS guys, as soon as someone gets there behind smashed they cry .

look all over this darn board there are whines every where about bigby's about sd about 1 lvl of paladin for the sorcerer etc etc etc.

when are you guys just gonna get it that every single class and class combo has weakness and str. This server is really heading for chases +2 stick idea faster then u know.

Get the hell over it slave dude you got beat up by some guy wiith WOF so what i been beat up by slave ranger/rogue/sd besides others , did i come on here and start whining about bane of enemies and shadow dancers.

lets just continue to whine our heads of anytime we make something we thought was gonna be kick a#$ but then discover its beatable - everything is beatable - HAVOK hit the nail on the head a cpl days ago go back an read his posts you are never gonna find a build on this highly customised and often nerfed server that will take evry one else no matter what .

BTW i tried my wof on earth and air plane with pink a 37 cleric it sucked its not overpowered - cleric were over powered melee before but that was changed, now u wanna wreck wof for them too, whats next implosion has already gone from small AOE to a damn 9th lvl finger of death - complete gayness imo clerics as casters has few saving graces a nerfed implosion and wof + you summons again nerfed recently - ts etc and the solar was toned down a while ago from my understaanding - are u start ing to see a patern for clerics yet !

Lay of the clerics go pick on some other class i believe someone already suggested bard there ya go let the whining begin

[-BannyD-]

How this translates into a dramatic loss in AC (as opposed to an admittedly dramatic drop in offensive ability), I'm not sure. Are you saying this is an undocumented effect of the WoF spell?

try it sometime. get blinded, watch the ab rolls (especially on a dex toon as i think uncanny dodge still doesnt work). its not an effect of WoF it is an effect of the blind.

BTW i tried my wof on earth and air plane with pink a 37 cleric it sucked its not overpowered - cleric were over powered melee before but that was changed, now u wanna wreck wof for them too, whats next implosion has already gone from small AOE to a damn 9th lvl finger of death - complete gayness imo clerics as casters has few saving graces a nerfed implosion and wof + you summons again nerfed recently - ts etc and the solar was toned down a while ago from my understaanding - are u start ing to see a patern for clerics yet !

so you personally cannot solo planes...welcome to every other class! now try it with a melee cleric, their forte.

[PeregrineV]

I have a level 28 caster cleric, and WOF is pretty low on my list of spells to use. It doesn't seem to do anything but make pretty lights. The bad guys chasing me keep chasing and whacking, my summons keeps whacking them, blood's flying, I'm running, they're chasing, it's a battle, I tell ya.

In a group it seems to do more, but I think that is just because there are more of the good guys whacking on the bad guys.

Now storm of vengeance, that is a useful spell.

Crap, I mean it sucks. Way too sucky. Ignore the stuff about Storm of Vengeance. Horrible spell. Leave it the way it is.
Horrible.

[-BannyD-]

Monsters react differently than PCs do. I am not sure how they cope with blindness but my guess is their scripts allow them to 'see beyond' the small field of vision it grants and lock onto a target, though still applying the %miss chance and unusually lower ac.

[Takashi]

Its always seemed to me like this spell, bigbies, and timestop were the "I WIN" buttons of nwn. An effect that such a huge minority of other player characters have no way of countering or dealing with is pretty clearly overpowered.

Timestop and bigbies have been balanced here, why not wof?

[kingfatzo]

oh for the love of god, here we go again.

Im so sick of this BS guys, as soon as someone gets there behind smashed they cry .

AMEN !!!

implement remove blindness rodes as celorn mentioned, and vola ! problem solved......

---based on this rationale , i should start a similar WAHH WAHH thread on each the following issues just because they make it difficult for me to win in pvp (please note the heavy sarcasim below)

1. igms because they are very painful
2. bigbies beceuase i dont always make the save
3.warding, since its cheesy and gives ppl huge dr
4. wof cause it blinds me
5. that evil bardsong because it lowers my ab
6. druids , because they can shift
7. hipsers because i cant see them
8. fighters because they have ikd
9. sneak attacks because they are brutal
10. monks because they are fast
11. sr because its cheap when i cant hit someone w/ spells
12. mords because they debuff me

......see how silly these are ? this thread falls under these ludicrious categories....if we all whined about everything that we didnt like, such a thread would overcome the old 50 page spam thread !!!

and ultimately whining will lead to the land being taken over by Chase --and we will all be using +2 clubs to fight each other ...PLEASE just get over it !

[Celorn]

WoF is NOT an 'i win' button.. FAR from it... Wail, Implode, FoD, even Thunderclap and SoV -(-some of these need focus and used on the right target) are much more powerful. Just being blind doesn't make you DIE instantly or guarentee a loss, plus there are a few ways you can be immune to WoF, as well as removing it in 1 round.

OH, and WoF HAS BEEN CHANGED -- pre-wipe it used to dispell DA's and Black Devils for pete's sake! The stunning effect is still there, but it has has a save.. and without focus, really only effects low CR npcs.

Anyhow, my vote is to leave the spell alone and just allow arcane crafters to make remove blindness wands/rods... A well rounded guild or party should have access to at least 1 MA arcane crafter -- anybody with bard/wis/soc or a UMD class can benefit from the cheaply crafted arcane stuff.

[havelot]

try it sometime. get blinded, watch the ab rolls (especially on a dex toon as i think uncanny dodge still doesnt work). its not an effect of WoF it is an effect of the blind.

Well, I don't have a dexer build on NS4 as yet...so I can't. Will someone with a dexer build please take the time to validate BannyD's claim? I'm dubious of it myself but am willing to give it a fair hearing. Judging from the available and otherwise rather trustworthy NWN wiki documentation, blindness should not lower one's AC. If it does, then probably the developers need to take a look at it (since I'm guessing they don't want unintended effects - read: out of their control - happening here and there). If it doesn't, then BannyD probably shouldn't post another message (save an apology) for a year or so.

[Metis]

I personally dont see any reason to change it but this may help everyone:

victim lvl >12 blind

=>8 <12 blind/stun

=>4 <8 blind/stun/confuse

<4 death

duration is caster level/4 (except death that lasts longer)

aoe is colossal

I have yet to see it dispell someones summons unless there is a wide level gap