My oppinion on how incredibly unbalanced items are.

Chimaira · Post by **Chimaira** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:04 pm

When i first heard NS4 was going to be "Low-magic" I (of course) knew that casters were going to be stronger then fighter classes, I mean its the way the whole game works. But the current item system REALLY makes it as unbalanced as it can possibly be. First of all, every single armor and shield(well cept low lvl ones) has damage resistance and damage immunity to physicals (some better armors and shields also have immunity to elementals, but who cares when spellcasters have a dozen spells of various elements). Now what does that mean? Well currently Im a Bard/Fighter/RDD and my strength aint low to say the least (32), I have no trouble hitting, but actually doing damage to anything except a lvl 1 wearing starter gear is kind of hard...Most of the time im hitting for the amazing amount of 2-5 damage, usually in the 20s when its a critical hit. Just about any mage of my level does around 80 damage per spell, and that while I could be hitting him for 20+ damage a hit and over 50 on a critical, but because of items Im pretty much screwed against anything except another fighter. The same for mobs, all a mage needs is 1 FoD to kill a LA guard, I need to keep whacking the bugger for 10 mins untill hes finally dead. I think that this system needs to change, theres no point in making casters even more powerfull then they already are. Its ok when theres a bit of immunity(like 20% tops, if its stackable till 40% then that really aint good either), but the resistance really has to go in my oppinion.

Post by **Lokey** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:29 pm

You're hitting fine...try power attack (+ 5 to 10 damage per hit and 10 to 20 on a crit)? Try another damage type--if the sword isn't getting through, maybe it's time to dust off that spear?

Karma · Post by **Karma** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:32 pm

If harm immunity is hard to come by here make a fighting cleric so u can harm the wiz into a low hp state. If not, make a mage man...nothing worse than bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Gil-Este · Post by **Gil-Este** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:37 pm

Lokey wrote:You're hitting fine...try power attack (+ 5 to 10 damage per hit and 10 to 20 on a crit)? Try another damage type--if the sword isn't getting through, maybe it's time to dust off that spear?

I totally agree Lokey. Its time to stop being one trick ponies who are crippled when their favorite YDB or Pain or Fang turns out to be ineffective. There is a reason fighters are proficient in all martial weapons. Its so they can use them.

XxDkCobraxX · Post by **XxDkCobraxX** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:46 pm

hehehe, i broke out the ol' spear of ogre beatdown

AndrewCarr · Post by **AndrewCarr** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:55 pm

I just hit for 40 a few mins ago on a pc on a longbow crit. Getting massive crit on items is important, as are enchancements. Go for the enchanced steel weapons if you can't find anything better, and you should do well. I've also found two elemental two handed weapons(know where one drops currently) so those are something to look into. Also, spell mantle potions can be found. They're somewhat rare, but they're there.

Chimaira · Post by **Chimaira** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:38 am

Hmm, so how about adding some gear with lvl 9 spell immune? Time to learn how to fight instead of cast. Perhaps cause theres no point? Perhaps because it makes the game boring, stupid and uninteresting to play? Or because its just pointless to have people walking around that cant be harmed? Its funny (and very sad at the same time) how this vision of "Use something else" is only making fighters suffer, rather then spellcasters, which are already more powerfull then fighters. And what makes you think someone doesnt change gear when you change weapons? I got 40% immunity to slashing, and 10/- resistance in slashing/piercing, if I see someone using a bow or rapier, I switch to my 20% piercing immunity tower shield, if I see someone using a hammer or a flail, out goes the 20% bludgeoning immunity and 10/- bludgeoning resist shield. Apart from that, it makes playing a weapon master pretty darn silly since any enemy that just happens to be immune and resistant (Or one that just makes himself resistant and immune, such as switching items) to whatever damage type your weapon of choice does means you need to switch weapons and basicly lose any benefits you get from being a weapon master.

And Karma, if theres one thing that ruins NWN its people that play classes just cause theyre strong. Dont you think I can be a cleric or sorcerer like 60% of the other idiots and lvl like a maniac so I can kill lvl 8s when Im lvl 16?
Sheesh I cant believe Im actually trying to explain why high damage resistance and immunity is stupid, and that people actually dont understand it and come with suggestions such as "play a sorc" and "Use power attack"(which doesnt work since I cant even hit then, which is even worse then doing the amazing 5 damage) Or even to switch to a different weapon; Ive used 2 feats so I can use 1 type of weapon better, why would I use 6 feats to use 3 weapons better, sure I can actually damage a caster then, but wont last a second since my saves and hp are rock bottom because I had to use my feats to focus in 3 different weapons.

Gil-Este · Post by **Gil-Este** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:33 am

I have played in a number of PnP campaigns: as a player, and more recently as a DM. There is always going to be an opponent against whom any one player is impotent. If a campaign, or even a single adventure, could be played to a successful conclusion by any single player, I would consider it a failed adventure. What makes this game, or any other game, fun isn't the fair fights, or the balanced duels, or the checks and balances that make sure our neighbor never has more than we do. It is the orc horde ready to rush down the mountain on your cold, starving, defenseless party of four as soon as they leave the cave they are hiding in. It is the fighter who keeps on fighting after his magical sword loses its magic and he is permanently blinded by a deific being. It is the sorceress who stands defiant against her foes, even after every bone in her hands has been crushed to the point where spellcasting is nigh on impossible. A good, fun game isn't a game where my character and your character are so equal that there is no way to predict the outcome of our fight. If I wanted that, I'd go flip a coin with somebody. So everyone quit your whining. If someone beats you, figure out why and how to beat them, not how to change the rules so you don't have to change at all. If you encounter that foe against whom all your attacks are worthless, all your spells harmless, find a party. Bring the fight to them on your terms, because they will certainly do the same.

I know this post doesn't explicitly apply to the topic at hand, but think about it a bit...it does.

And all the above scenarios of blindness, fingercrushing, and orc horde pinning us in a cave all happened in a fun campaign within the space of three game days. For more fun, try being a half-celestial cleric with your wings frozen in a block of ice trying to cross a frozen ravine with a half-starved angry bear right behind you.

Post by **Lokey** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:34 am

http://www.nsrealm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=519

There's some other good posts I've seen about 1v1 combat and what to expect from it and what sux about it and how much better life is in a party...guess I should refrain from commenting on whipping another tower shield out of your pocket for now too.

Anyway, Bio RDD has laughable reqs, you didn't sacrifice anything going into the class. Depends on how bardly you are, song, spells and skills should all be useful.

If resists and immunes can be overlapped too effectively, it's something that can be looked into at some point as well.

For more fun, try being a half-celestial cleric with your wings frozen in a block of ice trying to cross a frozen ravine with a half-starved angry bear right behind you.

Hopefully we'll be able to do this in NS someday, one thing at a time.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:35 am

GO GIL!!!

RunarSterk · Post by **RunarSterk** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:52 am

IMO everyone should have their weaknesses. Figther types should be good at resisting close range melee attacks, but not magic and only so-so against ranged. Ranged-attackers should be in trouble against magic and so-so against close-range melee. Magic casters should be in deep when a melee type is able to hit them. Too much immune-this and resist-that gear makes the game more about finding the right kit than about having fun, if you ask me. I like to play the figther type. Average-to-low intelligence and wisdom, high strength and constitution. Someone casts confuse on me, and I should be in for some pain. I manage to get hits on that guy before he casts the mind-affecting stuff, and he should be a goner.

Daltian · Post by **Daltian** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:22 am

I agree that there are too many resistances and imunities on otems.

Arjento · Post by **Arjento** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:29 am

NS is all about the uberness.

That is why it is such a popular PW.

You may get low lvl uberness items...but the mobs will also have these uber stats for a certain lvl range.

There are many non-uber servers out there.

The devs may not have got the mix of uber with balance perfect yet....but they will get damn close.[/i]

Dinko · Post by **Dinko** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:28 pm

I hoped someone from the dev team would have spent a month playing on dungeon eternal X to get a feeling on how things really work in a PvP enviroment. Obviously very little tought was given to balance and exploration of the subject.

To anyone who "defends" some class that is overpowerd -> guess what, anyone can play that class !

Immunities have to go. All immunities. FYI, in a hard core pvp world that has no immunities AT ALL, a wizard & cleric(cleric monk) are still the strongest characters (not my opinion - tested over a long time by many ppl).

I really tried to imagine what motives could stand behind decisions to add phisical immunities on gear..no luck there.

I dont mean to sound ungratefull...the true seeing change/stealth is a wonderfull thing, removing harm as it is, having no immunities on mind, disarm, knockdown - also great. But damage immunities / damage resistance all over the place makes certain classes absolete. And that is exactly what the communitiy wanted to change. We wanted diversity, every class to have it's own purpose.

Sofa King Canadian · Post by **Sofa King Canadian** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:35 pm

a cleric tank will own most mages, just despell harm and own. However once mages get epic mage armour and warding tanks better run for cover