PM talk

Ryddwillow · Post by **Ryddwillow** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:38 pm

And I must include it did take 5 of you

Kromix · Post by **Kromix** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:48 am

where's the pot at? CHUG!
where's the pot at? CHUG!
where's the pot at? CHUG!
where's the pot at? CHUG!
where's the pot at? CHUG!
etc...

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:14 am

What about making PM require being able to cast 4th level Arcane spells. I believe this was how it was originally meant to be. This would mean that you would have to be a 7th level Mage, 8th level Sorc or a 10th level Bard just to be able to take your first PM level. This would cut down on many of the cheese builds and make it more of a spell casting class like it was meant to be. I was always kind of confused on why PMs didn't follow the PnP ruleset in regards to this and made you only have to take 1 Arcane Caster level.

MLoki

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:43 am

Either that or take away their ability to cast 9th level spells when they're only 4th level casters....

Kromix · Post by **Kromix** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:06 am

i was wondering id there is a way to make it so Healkits get empowered, so its an alternative to the heal pot. and i actually would reduce the hea pots healing or remove em and increase healing kit's efficiency and use at higher levels, because pots need no skill points, the healing kits need skill point to use em efficiently.
this way it woudnt be a 300-400 hp heal which defeats a mage or any low physical damage class. this way if you want to heal good and fast, you have to spend skill points in healing. maybe reduce the weight of healkits a bit too... and add higher + to them. i would leave clerics as they are, but making it so the heal spells use the heal skill to add more healing/damage would be cool.

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:19 am

Healkits are cheaper, but need skill point invested in them to be good. Also you can use them while you're in stealth mode without revealing yourself.

havelot · Post by **havelot** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:46 pm

The problem with the cleric/SD builds is that it's hard to get your hide&ms high enough to be effective against the high levels of spot&listen you can get to.

The other day, I tried to trade a +2 INT for a + 2 STR Tome and had no takers. That really puzzled me, and I'll hint as to why: it doesn't matter when 3 of the 6 Tomes (STR included) are applied to a build. But the other 3 must be applied at some point before the toon is completely leveled to have any or the maximal effect. From this standpoint, an INT Tome is the most valuable of all. Two of them applied at the right time can add up to ** Skill points, greatly minimizing the above cited problem.

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:25 pm

tomes don't really stack, you get the highest number of the 2. if you use a +2 then later on use a +4..you only get a +2 to equal out the +4.

havelot · Post by **havelot** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:58 pm

tomes don't really stack, you get the highest number of the 2. if you use a +2 then later on use a +4..you only get a +2 to equal out the +4.

I know. But the two may be applied, at the earliest, at different stages of character development. So, do a little math to see where I was going with my original statement.

Charles I · Post by **Charles I** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:20 am

Disclaimer: Don't have a PM now, have had in past, will eventually have sometime in future.

Two reasons to take PM: Crit immunity and Death's Accomplice.

Crits: We've all had our adventuring day cut short by a crit from Genyok or a lanceress. Who wouldn't like to be protected? New planar boss will crit for 300+, that's half the hp of most characters and all for many. Take a double and it's goodnight. So taking PM can be an effective counter.

DA: Other casters have solars, balors, devils and so forth. Is the DA better than these, probably. Should it be better, no. True it takes 30 levels of PM (40 total) to get the DA. But what about the pure wiz or cleric that also has achieved level 40? should they not have just as powerful a summon for the same dedication? It does not take any extra experience to attain level 40 for either. If you choose to multi-class you accept that you may have an xp penalty, and humans can become PM so that is not a must.

Haven't seen any pure 40 wiz, cleric, etc yet. If their summon is on a par with DA, I see no reason to change. If not equal, then balance.

Yes, a PM is tough to beat but can be beaten.

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:08 pm

Ryddwillow wrote:And I must include it did take 5 of you

I love the fact that while bragging Ryddwillow has also given us an example of what is wrong with the PM.

MLoki

Post by **DeputyDog** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:19 pm

Pure sorc/wiz/cleric summons are not on par with pm. They should be.

If we leave the pm summon as is then the dragonknight, mummy dust summons should be increased for pure casters to match.

DA is a little over the top with the 70 or so ab. Throw a bard in the party and its only stoppable by planar bosses or npcs with smite:)

Perhaps lower the ab on the DA a little.
Im fine with either, but I think for a pure caster to get a summon that good they need to have all the focuses as well.

Nemesis Revised · Post by **Nemesis Revised** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:15 pm

i agree with DD. pure casters should be given nicer dragonknights, mummies, etc. the higher they go in lvel. bout 30+ 35+

Ryddwillow · Post by **Ryddwillow** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:30 pm

I am going to be nice to Mloki response:}. I developed it because 1) I never really played a pm and thought it was a challenge to me. 2) I wanted a tank to retrieve things( equipment, weapons, and etc. ). 3) I really don't play it now (went to new char). 4) I dont heal in battle unless i see someone heal first from the opposition. All chars have flaws vs other chars, been here for a long time and I have seen this. The problem lies within the builder not the build. Bandwagon on builds is something I tend to stay out of because it is usually a person got smacked around and they didnt like it. It is a game, and changes are being made everyday here for the better or the worse. I DEAL w/ it and move on. I'm done on this subject. Thankyou for your time.

The Willow

Cthulhu Drega · Post by **Cthulhu Drega** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:17 pm

i see it as this the DA is the mark for standard of highest level of summons so make the rest to be on *par* and everyones happy. however i would point out that making a DA summoner means you focus everything on your summons the summoner is of little threat without the DA so it should be a bit meaner than a pure mage or cleric dragon knight ect as a *pure caster still has oodles of spells with a high dc ect to compinsate*. do keep that in mind when making changes. *when determining the power of the summons you realy need to ignore the summons*. what i mean is you need to look at the summoner and how he would cope without said summons. like i said earlier a pure caster summoner will still have a great DC and all thoes caster levels for damage ect *whereas a DA summoner has a ok ac immune to crit and spells n buffs a level 8 could dispell*. why sacrafice all thoes caster levels and the like if its not for something quite nice? and since the pure caster will have better spells and higger DCs adding a summons to it will just make it all the more uber the DA should be the most powerful as you give up so mutch to attain it.

* on par meaning that thes * parts should be considered and factored in