assassins

[Maankin]

Unless of course you hide and sneak up on them

I thought that was the whole point about being an assassin.
Just remove the helmets with see invisibility charges etc. and things become fun again.
And it is true, keeping int and dex high is hard. But the same problem poses itself with paladins, CoTs, bards and monks.
I think most people would be able to cope with a reduction in the duration of freedom of movement, so it becomes a combat buff in stead of a buf you cast when you wake up and which expires when you go to sleep again.
That way they're able to save themselves when they see you, but are in serious trouble when they don't.
And the casters get to use their fun spells again.

[Flailer]

I think most people would be able to cope with a reduction in the duration of freedom of movement, so it becomes a combat buff in stead of a buf you cast when you wake up and which expires when you go to sleep again.
That way they're able to save themselves when they see you, but are in serious trouble when they don't.

We here at NS4 are always in favor of decreasing the duration of spells.

Seriously though, probably a good idea.

[CrazyJ]

Duration = 5+ (1 turn/level) maybe?

[Maankin]

Duration = 5+ (1 turn/level) maybe?

I think it lasts now 1hour/level in stead of 1 turn/level like it says in the description.
So that proposal wouldn't change much, instead of lasting 20 hours (= 40 real minutes) it would last 25 turns (= 25 real minutes) for a level 20 cleric. That would just require 1 extra spell slot and a recast. And most casters run out of heals or damage spells before 25 minutes of playtime have gone by.
I was more thinking of something like 3turns + 1turn/3 levels
at level 10 it would last 3 hours = 6 minutes
at level 20 it would last 9 turns = 9 minutes
So it would last long enough for a few battles, but not long enough to keep it up all the time.

[Flailer]

If you're thinking of trying to make a spell function as a combat spell, think in terms of rounds, not turns.

I'd say 1 round/2 levels or 5 rounds, whichever is longer. Also taking into account that this spell can be extended, you can make it last longer if you're willing to give up the spell slot.

Probably mind immunity spells should function the same way. Long term mind immunity pretty much negates the use of traditionally some of the most useful wiz spells. We could bring back the school of enchantment...

[Maankin]

from 20 minutes to 30 seconds
5 rounds is very short on the border of making it useless.
I was thinking of the duration of a potion of bulls strength, which is 3 hours.

edit: I'm pretty sure it lasts equally long as a protection from evil spell.

[Binkyuk]

pretty sure Freedom is 0.5t/lvl, but anyway.
why not just make it 1round/level? paralysis immunity is pretty great for a level 4 spell. at epic caster levels an extended 1r/lvl is still good for really quite a long time.
(incidentally i'd vote for the same for death ward, but i'd probably be lynched).

Do remember to up the caster level on the arcane Freedom rods if you change it though, they're short enough already.

[P. Fricebottle]

is there any way to script a backdoor into a spell? say like freedom makes you immune to paralyze except if its from assassin Death attack or druid Stonehold?

Um....what the hell?

[Flailer]

But with 1 round/2 levels at level 20, your Freedom spell would last 1 minute; extended for 2 minutes. How is that not long enough for a battle? It means that the spell goes from a walk-around spell (which makes it kinda useless for mobs/assassins to sneak up on someone) to a cast-when-I-fight spell.

I could maybe see 5 rounds + 1 round/2 levels, but that'd be my final offer.

[Maankin]

That would make it 1 minute (or 2 extended) at level 10
and 1.5 minute (or 3 extended) at level 20.
So it's still usefull at level 10.
I could live with that, though I can't speak for the other players.
But the assassins would probably totally agree.

Something else:
I'm not 100% sure, but:
When you cast for example an extended bulls strength you get the yellow message *spell extended*.
But for many spells this message does not appear; even if they are extended in your spellbook (I've tested this many times).
Some of these spells seem to be extended by themselves (some example spells are freedom of movement, improved invisibility). And others just can't be extended (like protection from evil). It's possible this is something that happens only with me (though my installation is almost clean). But I thought it would be good to mention it.

[MLoki]

But with 1 round/2 levels at level 20, your Freedom spell would last 1 minute; extended for 2 minutes. How is that not long enough for a battle? It means that the spell goes from a walk-around spell (which makes it kinda useless for mobs/assassins to sneak up on someone) to a cast-when-I-fight spell.

I could maybe see 5 rounds + 1 round/2 levels, but that'd be my final offer.

Just remember that you aren't just nerfing clerics if you do this. You are also nerfing Rangers and Druids who need spells like Freedom to make them usefull.

I'm a little disturbed by MLoki's comments though. I was under the impression that you were considered In Combat for D/A after clicking Attack on someone, not when you first swing. In any case this only allows you to D/A non-ranged PCs 'cos anyone ranged will just shoot or cast at you while you're out of sneak range.

In any case if the Assassin is alone then it probably won't work anyway. D/A only works within 15', and if your opponent is focusing on you you won't get a Death Attack on them in the same way you won't get a Sneak, so all they have to do in practice is click on you. I guess if you're with others though you can shoot any that don't go for you specifically.

Actually this works the exact same way Sneak Attack works when you are alone. If you catch your opponent Flat Footed (ie before his initiative or when you come out of sneaking or through cover of darkness) you will be able to D/A them. So with a maxed out initiative (or enough lag) you should be able to D/A just about anything. Not to mention if you fail the first time you could actually run around until the combat music ends then try again.

MLoki

[Flailer]

But, is wholesale immunity except for if you catch someone resting what we're after?

Admittedly, it's probably one of a rangers best spells out of their pretty weak spell set. Could possibly make an exception for rangers or make it longer for them, but that gets a little icky.

Just remember that you aren't just nerfing clerics if you do this. You are also nerfing Rangers and Druids who need spells like Freedom to make them usefull.

MLoki

[Maankin]

Just remember that you aren't just nerfing clerics if you do this. You are also nerfing Rangers and Druids who need spells like Freedom to make them usefull.

MLoki

Damn, you're correct. I'm beginning to understand how hard this is.

As far as I know (I play a wizard) you're not affected by your own movement reducing, paralyzing, etc. AOE spells. Exceptions are acid cloud, and maybe others. But your party members are affected by them.
Would it be possible to make the most dangerous ones (for example stonehold and evards black tentacles) non-party only? This would return the balance somewhat (I can't see a negative).

The big problem of stonehold in PVP remaims though.

[Death Dealer1]

your D/A only fires when your opponent is flat footed and not in combat. which means if they see you and are chasing you no D/A. i have found ways to make my chances better at firing them off against monsters, but players would eat me alive because i cannot protect against them....different AI

[CrazyJ]

Freedom needs to last at least twice as long as an equivalent-level Stonehold.