PM talk

[havelot]

Rather then nerf this nerf that I like to make other obsuce classes a little more competitive just to add something new to the world. Some may see this as an arms race, but I see it as evolution and allowing people to try new things and new builds.

This seems like a sensible approach. And if done by small (and even reversible) degrees, then nothing gets thrown totally out of whack. It takes time to really understand how to make a good build. The challenge in this is what makes NWN so interesting to me - much like doing puzzles. And, of course, every NWN server is different, having different emphases. Players who don't take the time to figure out how to make a viable build on a particular server should not complain about the results - any more than a person who buys a house sight unseen.

[Death Dealer1]

we should make harper scouts better....

[CrazyJ]

Or just re-work Harper Scout to be Werewolf.

[-BannyD-]

have the potion that the harper scout creates do something unique that would make people want them. perhaps a long lasting buff of like +1ab/ac +5dmg or something similar. the pot would still cost you 15xp or whatever it is but if it lasted a good amount of time it would easily be worth it..

[Umpa]

I'd be perfectly happy with MA having PM's if all the PMs were not helping AO or DD fulltime. There is no intention of the PM's actually playing MA more then a milisecond, because thier focus is on flag capping or defending for another factions. If you could sort that out to some degree the issue would be resolved.

It does actually take 4 people to beat down a PM in less then 2 minutes, and chances are if they have 10 heal pots and you can't KD its going to take a lot longer. Having 4 people needed to debuff a PM so you can take them down with a 50+ AB is silly, there are no negatives for being evil in game which is one of the large balancing things we dont use. Many balances used in DnD are not used in NS. PM's would normally be repulsive to all non PM/Evil types to the extreme, making them hard to play, and more apt be mobbed and killed by a thousand peasants.

You can say someones AB sucks, but with the right gear/spell comboes from UMD and bard, thats not true.

Perhaps having some vulnerability to divine and fire woul d make up for the lack of crits.

[Nemesis Revised]

i like the idea of it. makes paladins more adept at killing pms

[kingfatzo]

I'd be perfectly happy with MA having PM's if all the PMs were not helping AO or DD fulltime. There is no intention of the PM's actually playing MA more then a milisecond, because thier focus is on flag capping or defending for another factions. If you could sort that out to some degree the issue would be resolved.

It does actually take 4 people to beat down a PM in less then 2 minutes, and chances are if they have 10 heal pots and you can't KD its going to take a lot longer. Having 4 people needed to debuff a PM so you can take them down with a 50+ AB is silly, there are no negatives for being evil in game which is one of the large balancing things we dont use. Many balances used in DnD are not used in NS. PM's would normally be repulsive to all non PM/Evil types to the extreme, making them hard to play, and more apt be mobbed and killed by a thousand peasants.

You can say someones AB sucks, but with the right gear/spell comboes from UMD and bard, thats not true.

Perhaps having some vulnerability to divine and fire woul d make up for the lack of crits.

lets all read that again

[Death Dealer1]

pally's and CoT's are perhaps some of the best suited to kill PM's...if the PM's are evil. you could easily kill one in a single hit if it was evil.

[mgrjebbo]

not true i have a paladin which against most evil in the game including unknown does upwards of 450-500 damage per smite on a crit. against a pm those crits are reduced to 100-175 do to damage reduction, gear, ect.

if smites were turned into divine damage, and PM were giving a weakness to it then all would be fine.

well shoot smites should be divine anyway right?

[Celorn]

I agree, it's actually against the rules to log an enemy faction toon to defend another cradle (which has been done a few times lately) but other than that PMs aren't too hard to beat once their WARDING runs out... just debuff them somehow and run in circles until it does, then there are many ways, many different builds can hit them.

I do like the idea of divine dmg effecting PMs more 25% vuln. maybe?! Since the ones that are such a pain to beat are True Neutral I bet, so vs. evil or vs. chaotic is useless.

[solates]

Actually pms are not undead(or so they told me on another thread).

I think the major issue is the fact that at level ten they get immune crit-which makes them invuln to sneak attack as well as the onerous overwhelming crit and devastating crit feats.

Instead of complete immunity maybe a % chance of negating a crit(like 25%).

Could also completely stop their spell progression. Honestly since its turned into a "tank" build I do not see any reason to give a spell progression to them. No lvl 9 spells no epic spells, no epic spells = no epic warding.

Plenty of ways to alter the class so that not everyone and their mother has one because they have to have one because the devs built an area based on the fact that theres a "class with immunity to crits" out there and they could just walk through it if we don't give every mob 40 strength and 50 levels.

Interesting note-maybe pms could cause "pm hating" mobs to spawn on trigger. Would reinforce the whole "evilness" of the class.

Solates

[P. Fricebottle]

Actually pms are not undead(or so they told me on another thread).

Yeah, I've come to realize this as well. They don't have all the immunities given undead, so they're more of half-undead (hence the one skeletal arm and the other normal one). So I'd think they be better off as half-undead, don't want them immune to everything. However, I do think it should be an absolute requirement to be evil. I mean, Pale Masters are like the Liches for PCs.

I think the major issue is the fact that at level ten they get immune crit-which makes them invuln to sneak attack as well as the onerous overwhelming crit and devastating crit feats.

Instead of complete immunity maybe a % chance of negating a crit(like 25%).

Nah, because that completely takes away the reason for pale masters. Crit immunity. Without that, who would go pale masters? They're already boring enough to level.

Could also completely stop their spell progression. Honestly since its turned into a "tank" build I do not see any reason to give a spell progression to them. No lvl 9 spells no epic spells, no epic spells = no epic warding.

Bingo, what I was thinking as well. I mean really, the most a level 30 Pale Master could have in spell progression is level 5 spells. I really don't see why a Level 10 Wizard gets a level 9 bigsby. However, I don't know if I agree with the no epic spells though.

Plenty of ways to alter the class so that not everyone and their mother has one because they have to have one because the devs built an area based on the fact that theres a "class with immunity to crits" out there and they could just walk through it if we don't give every mob 40 strength and 50 levels.

I don't have a Pale Master . But really, I think just a little down-to-earth thing should be in order like I listed above. Other than that, they're pretty much fine. You have the nerve to level one to level 30? Be my guest.

Interesting note-maybe pms could cause "pm hating" mobs to spawn on trigger. Would reinforce the whole "evilness" of the class.

Thats an excellent idea, however that might cause a lot of scripting and more lag. However, most of Aetheria is evil (Pigmies for example) and wouldn't care if they were evil or not. However, it would be kinda cool to see a PM forbidden from Avendell.

[MasterYoda]

here's my suggestion as kind of molded together with everyone elses.

PM change:

at level 10 give them these.

25% vuln to fire.
25% vuln to divine.

mabey make it so once a char has 10 levels of pm due to there weak phyical fitness ( they are supposed to be arcane based after all ) make them not allowed to wear heavy armor or med armor.

this will help decrease the AC and still keep there build real decent. Taking there epic spells is nonsense since once again they are casters.

Also instead of non-good being a alignment requirement make it must be evil.

with all this it would actually make palis and cots usefull with there smiting ability. and would in theroy balance them out since now they are on a paper sicors rock scale again.

pure mage beats pali.
pali beats pm.
pm beats tank..

I might be a little off but u get the idea.

als don't know if this is scriptable but what if smite evil was able to bypass the immune to crit?

just some suggestions.

havok

[mgrjebbo]

i have read some good ideas here hopefully others who are able to make changes read these aswell.

On a side note i wouldnt mind seeing the paladin increased in power instead of decreasing Pm's. Give their smite the ability to bybass crit immunity and make it all divine damage. now that is a good idea.

[P. Fricebottle]

Also instead of non-good being a alignment requirement make it must be evil.

On a side note i wouldnt mind seeing the paladin increased in power instead of decrasing Pm's

I believe this is the general tone . By making a Pale Master evil-only, this makes them vulnerable to Smite and all. Thus, not weakening them in reality. Just bringing them down to reality with a true weakness.