PM talk

[Cthulhu Drega]

i hear a,lot of people whining for nerfing of the PM i dont agree the PM is MA's only saving grace. MA has the least ammount of classes of any faction. if the PM as it is now is nerffed to accomidate thoes of you with no immagination or innovation to counter them then you would need to add more base classes to MA to compinsate for this loss. the PM as it is is far fom unstopable it has a quite large achellies heel that if you know where and how to hit it will easly beat the PM and its summons.

all this talk is mutch like the talk of nerffing the SD, now no one sais they need to be nerffed as they have learned to deal with their powers. the PM is no diffrent all it takes is some immagination. i say all of this not because im forming a guild in MA but because the PM is MA's main weapon. i would remind all of you that MA has no monks, palladins, rangers, druids, or barbarians and any build that works on or has these classes in them.

so i would ask you to bear all this in mind before you raise a torch and join the mob screaming for a nerf of the PM

[P. Fricebottle]

Good point, besides, leveling a PM is like leveling a Drow. It takes extreme dedication, because their AB is horrible.

[Death Dealer1]

tru dat..i have a lvl 11 PM hybrid that can tank a tree smasher. takes a long long time with me and my summon doing about 8 damage a piece, but eventually he see's things my way and goes to sleep so i can kill him.

[kingfatzo]

OH ! this is just BEGGING to be torn apart !!

i hear a,lot of people whining for nerfing of the PM i dont agree the PM is MA's only saving grace.

Heh Thats like saying LA stinks because there are very few Pristige classes available, but you dont see any LA people complaining, meanwhile you have traditional SL and AO players running to MA just to make use of this PM build.....

MA has the least ammount of classes of any faction.

...yes well, they can still have the PM as their saving grace and reason to play this faction, but nonetheless there is no reason to it to be as powerful as to need 2, 3 even 4 people to take 1 PM down.....a PM doesnt walk, but waltzes out of Bigbies.....

if the PM as it is now is nerffed to accomidate thoes of you with no immagination or innovation to counter them then you would need to add more base classes to MA to compinsate for this loss

Again poor rationale, for example: the cleric took a rather nasty hit post wipe, but still people make good use of it, it seems that the PM has yet to be put on the chopping block to make it 'similar' to other builds' standards..the PM can be nerfed just like the cleric, and people will still play it....dont worrry about the pooor MA loosing out on their only build :O ...

the PM as it is is far fom unstopable it has a quite large achellies heel that if you know where and how to hit it will easly beat the PM and its summons.

Yes, a PM like every other class has a weak spot....but you are missing the point -- pre-wipe, i have seen PM's solo planar bosses with ease, a feat hard to accomplish without slamming your build with ECL 2 or 3...along with a % penalty in some cases and even after all that it can be rather tricky.......again unbalanced in relation to other builds available on the server.

all this talk is mutch like the talk of nerffing the SD, now no one sais they need to be nerffed as they have learned to deal with their powers. the PM is no diffrent all it takes is some immagination. i say all of this not because im forming a guild in MA but because the PM is MA's main weapon. i would remind all of you that MA has no monks, palladins, rangers, druids, or barbarians and any build that works on or has these classes in them.

This is a whole other topic....
"MA's Main Weapon" ??? so again on that rationale, LA has no main weapon....but lets see here, RK = DD =yes, AO = RDD = yes, SL = sleezy drow = yes .....TC = shifters .....MA = pm's ....NC = CoT's ....LA = what ?? --yes we have a broad base of options for ourselves, but no pRc that stands out.....but i Still play LA and along with alot of other people who enjoy playing LA....i nor do my fellow LA members complain about such things, nor do we run off to MA JUST to build a PM... we are happy with our setup and location...

and its not like if the great zing nerfs your precious PM that all of a sudden , Garagoth will sink into the ocean and become a new sunken isle.....you will still have your precious PM to parade around with.

so i would ask you to bear all this in mind before you raise a torch and join the mob screaming for a nerf of the PM

hehe just remember u brought it up, so when PM's get slammed, everyone can raise an eyebrow to you

---you have been pWnd by the fat man.

[Cthulhu Drega]

the PM will not be nerffed as per Dept.Dog saying so in another thread

[CrazyJ]

I'm not really sure how a PM with AC 75 is beatable for anyone who doesn't have an AB of at least 60 (hit maybe one time per round at that AB).

[P. Fricebottle]

You need spells to do it, because the PM's fortitude save is horrible. I could probably just walk up to one and implode him.

[Death Dealer1]

pre wipe shadow of death had about a 50 vs death spells....ever try to implode that?

[DeputyDog]

A pure pm and a bard/pm are two different things we are discussing.

The only possible change we are considering is giving pms a vulerability to divine or something along those lines. AC and abilities wouldnt change.

[Celorn]

pre wipe shadow of death had about a 50 vs death spells....ever try to implode that?

Implode isn't death magic, so saves vs. death doesn't help you there.

Try putting death ward on and get pink to implode you ;]

[Death Dealer1]

my fort was still high enough to make most fort spell laughable.

[havelot]

I'm not really sure how a PM with AC 75 is beatable for anyone who doesn't have an AB of at least 60 (hit maybe one time per round at that AB).

Let's see....a certain Bard build with a certain + 6 weapon will get you around 54 or 55 AB...add to that an effective increase of +7 with Song and Curse...topped by + 3 with War Song and possibly + 1-6 coming from a Taunt (if said PM didn't avail himself of enough Intelligence points to max out Concentration)...expedited by the additional damage coming from songs...I think that might do it. Offensively, apart from Summons, a PM is fairly powerless. So I have NO idea why people want to nerf it (as if the D&D and Bioware developers gave nary a thought to that Holy Grail of NWN mod development: "balance"). Are we saying that EVERY build must be able to defeat a PM?

[Celorn]

Well, yeah, you probably had pumped your CON since there wasn't much point trying to fight back with such cruddy AB, but it's all ancient history post-wipe, all I can remember now is giving you the beat-down once your precious had been flattened, and I remember you running to Avendel with a relic with other :DD: desparately trying to stop us from getting you.

[Celorn]

I'm not really sure how a PM with AC 75 is beatable for anyone who doesn't have an AB of at least 60 (hit maybe one time per round at that AB).

Let's see....a certain Bard build with a certain + 6 weapon will get you around 54 or 55 AB...add to that an effective increase of +7 with Song and Curse...topped by + 3 with War Song and possibly + 1-6 coming from a Taunt (if said PM didn't avail himself of enough Intelligence points to max out Concentration)...expedited by the additional damage coming from songs...I think that might do it. Offensively, apart from Summons, a PM is fairly powerless. So I have NO idea why people want to nerf it (as if the D&D and Bioware developers gave nary a thought to that Holy Grail of NWN mod development: "balance"). Are we saying that EVERY build must be able to defeat a PM?

This is partially true, my bard/BG/ftr has beaten PMs already, especially if I get in a curse song before they do (which would make them temporarily immune).

Good bards, clerics, paladins and mages are best to beat a PM 1 on 1 if they're fast enough, they all have a lot of extra damage that beats the crit-immune. If the summons is up, then it's wise to deal with that first, if it's the same as pre-wipe, it is EVIL even if the PM is TN, and has vulnerabilites to acid and fire, and any spell or weapon with extra undead damage will hurt it - just stay on it until it's dead, you don't want it punching you in the back.

Most builds don't even have a hope for beating a pm. ie: Monks and assassins can't stun, rogues can't sneak, any fighter type will be crippled by the curse, etc...

Although, my monk+rogue+sd did damage Reaper (an annoying pm) quite a lot using a drow staff of power's IGMS (he had to heal to stay alive while fatzo was pounding on him at the same time!) but that wasn't really solo...

[DeputyDog]

Not even remotely trying to say that every class should beat every class. There is no way to balance everything.

Main thing is to eventually get the factions into some sort of balance but even that might be futile.

There are counters to the bard/pm as there are counters to the pure pm epic summon. They take planning and what not to do solo so again use a team.

Rather then nerf this nerf that I like to make other obsuce classes a little more competitive just to add something new to the world. Some may see this as an arms race, but I see it as evolution and allowing people to try new things and new builds.

Keeps you on your toes.