PM summons

[Elagneros]

Taht wasn't the point n00b

I guess I have to spell it out for you then.

+16 natural AC: best in game from items is a +4. Barkskin will get you a +5 with a high enough level druid, but is dispellable.

Perma paralysis immunity. Only granted by enough levels in RDD, PM, or monk if paralysis efffect is a mind-based spell (usually the case). No items with fill immunity for anyone else for balance.

Crit immunity. ONLY PM has that here. So while the rest of us are taking 300 point crits from the epic mobs, you're getting what? About 30 with the right gear? Oh yeah, that's about how much bonus hps you get with the build. And once again, no items here with crit immunity for balance.

The summon is already supposed to be the best one here.

Can't hit crap? Boo hoo hoo. It's an arcane caster PrC, and arcane casters are supposed to be crappy fighters. It's called balance. We don't need builds that have several permanent immunities, have decent spellcasting abilities and can smack everything in sight around at will.

There's so many other classes in this module that have serious weaknesses or mediocre aspects to the point where nobody is playing anything but tweaked out clerics. Classes like oh I don't know, pure rangers, pure fighters, pure barbarians, pure rogues, hell, pure anything, shifters, assassins, and so on. If PM is so bad, why do I see several players from :: DD :: working on ones?

[Death Dealer1]

dude....quit complaining.

nobody said it was bad. but at the high lvls of planes and dwarves the regular master lich has a hard time keeping up with the abuse you have to put him through. sure at lvl 30pm you get a great monster of a summon, but until then you have the exact same guy that got you through amazons and bretheren. he doesn't change at all. nobody said make pm's better or make pm's hit more. all that was brought up was at 25pm lvls why can't the summon change just a little?


if you really want to start making good statements just ask why can't BG's get a super summon at lvl 30bg? why do you only need 22lvls to get the best? how bout SD's?

[Mr. O'Dearly]

Taht wasn't the point n00b

If PM is so bad, why do I see several players from :: DD :: working on ones?

But how many of those are "pure?"

As far as I have seen there is only one person on this server with the patience to even try to get a lvl 30 PM.

Were not talking about giving pms more benefits in their first ten lvls.

If you devote 30 lvls to pm youve gotta give up a lot.

your max BA, assuming 3 bard, 7 fighter, 30 pm will be 24.
of course, bard is just a really bad choice to take for a 30 lvl pm build so your BA is likely to be even lower.

If you take 30 lvl pm you dont get very great spell casting ability either.
assuming 10 wiz/ 30 pm your max caster lvl is 25. Youre gonna run into big problems with spell resistance and being dispelled. If you want to be a fighter type pm which you likely will as your spells will not be entirely usefull you will either have to multiclass which lowers your caster lvl even more or give up feats.

What does this leave you with? Your summon. This is exactly the problem were addressing here. The pm gives up his fighting ability in order to have the awesome summon. We're not even necessarily asking for a more powerful summon, but rather a summon that scales closer to the way your character does, rather than every 10 lvls.

My ideal 30 lvl pm build is 4 fighter/6 wiz/30 pm.
This gives you 21 caster lvls. It isn't great but whats the difference when your max is 25?
The fighter lvls help out a lot by giving proficiencies and a BAB. The final BAB would max out at 22. Once again not great but it gives you the third attack so you get an extra chance to roll 20 for an auto hit.

Sure the PMs is tough as nails but how would you like to be the invincible rock? Dont say

Play something else then.

The goal is not to herd people into the builds that work but to make more of the less frequently used builds as attractive as the more common ones. *cough*sd,cleric,monk*cough*

[JesterOI]

PM's have survivability, that's about it.

[P. Fricebottle]

They have ULTIMATE survivability. Geeze you people are starting to make me sick. Some people complain about Pale Masters having too much AC, while others complain about too little AB. For the love of god, theres nothing wrong with that! Its completely balanced. Sure, a PM can't hit worth crap. But PMs have summons to do the work for them. So what a PM lacks in AB, their summon makes up for it.

Get back on-topic people, the original request was a new summon at level 25. Personally, I think something like that would be a great idea. Enough with petty rivals on the forums.

[JesterOI]

No one was complaining about low-ab...

[Celorn]

elag: PMs are the only non-shifting crit&sneak-immune PC, but Rangers can shift in to zombie form, Mages can shift into Iron Golem, and Druids can shift into Elemental forms, and others (even rogues or bards with umd&scrolls) -- all of which are crit.immune and most sneak immune too... The ultimate tank on ns4 could be a mage with warding+armor+epic dodge shifted into a crit+sneak immune form, while their buffed solar and party members chop up the bad guys.

dd1: I agree, there should be -something- for lvl25 pm's summons (maybe not the insane Summoned Liches seen on NS3.5 that cast hellball maybe give the undead a sword that can be buffed...they already have the feats for it right?).

dd1: I also think if the PM summons is tweaked, the BG and SD summons need more work to give incremental upgrades at lvl25 and 30, I think the coolest thing for SD summons might be to make them MONK so they can do a little damage.

joran: actually a sorc/bard/harper can be a pretty powerful build ;] but nowhere near the cleric/fighter/rog that dominates as king build on ns4...

[Death Dealer1]

yeah, i totally agree that if lvl 25pm gets a small tweak then BG and SD's should get a bump at lvl 25...heck give them something good for 30 lvls so they don't have anything to complain about.

[JesterOI]

Just make the summon scale every 2 levels.

And none of this "bonus" stuff that caps out after awhile.

Some good solid bab, ac, etc...