Bigby Proposal

alena · Post by **alena** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:11 pm

I understand the need to improve fighters as a class but it sure seems to be getting hard for a wiz. Spells run out long before anything dies. I guess that is the plan

Sunny

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:10 pm

Keeping Mages feasible is easy enough, increase monster AC but lower HP.

Then again that's TOO easy perhaps...

But, in the end, nothing is more fun than beating on something for 30min straight till it dies...

MasterYoda · Post by **MasterYoda** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:17 pm

Man there has already been so much to nerf wizz/sorc that's its getting real difficult to understand y.

People don't like getting destroyed by igms
Igms gets nerfed

People whine about cheese builds
5 level restriction goes in.( which by the way I think is awesome )

Now people complain about bigsbies.

I have a horrible cleric bard wm with weak str and even he can get out of bisbies.

Bigsibies can be worked through no matter what but some classes are allways gonna get owned by them. The spell it self is great.

I DO think however that the scrolls need to be nerfed. The scrolls should not have the same str/check/save as the same as a spel.

Mages are mages. That's what they do.

Just deal with it. I hate it just as much as the next persom getting owned by bisbies but I have learned to make bigsbies a priority in my builds weather I use them or are defending from them.

Casters in general should own a fighter any day of the week.

I fighter should never be able to walk up to a mage and smash him. It should involve skill and precision in fighting a mage.

I think if people kep complaining about everything then were all gonna be walhing aroung beating each other with fish sticks and throwing bags of cats at each other.

kingfatzo · Post by **kingfatzo** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:29 pm

Good points yoda, all and all it seems everything that gets ranted about gets a nerf, ( just like greater restoration, etc.... ) and sooner or later 1 on 1 duels will be an all day affair

Maybe i should start to complain about drow darkness

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:53 pm

Joran wrote:
So is it possible to rescript bigbies into something like i layed out?
Sorry Cluster for not getting back to you about this - as a matter of fact your post has spurred on a lot of conversation in the dev forums about this very issue, and a possible change to the implementation of Bigsby's will be coming out of it shortly. Also known as, "soon"

Great ideas!

Yeh I just went looking for my post with the bigbies suggestions I had with the formula and everything, but it seems to have gone missing...

Was a huge post too...

Post by **Metis** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:01 pm

Things like greater restoration (which really should only cure every condition and not heal anything) and igms (be real, before you could destroy huge mobs in seconds) are the few things that have been toned down. As you noticed the attempt is almost always made to make other classes/feats/factions more attractive then reducing the power of another but, this is one of the things I definitely think needs a change. We are talking about making them survivable not erasing them.

Enjoy my very rare rant, and off topic also

. Lets keep it to suggestions for bigbys spells on this post.

MasterYoda · Post by **MasterYoda** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:14 pm

Metis wrote:Things like greater restoration (which really should only cure every condition and not heal anything) and igms (be real, before you could destroy huge mobs in seconds) are the few things that have been toned down. As you noticed the attempt is almost always made to make other classes/feats/factions more attractive then reducing the power of another but, this is one of the things I definitely think needs a change. We are talking about making them survivable not erasing them.

Enjoy my very rare rant, and off topic also . Lets keep it to suggestions for bigbys spells on this post.

As with this I totally understand but in a realistic argument back mages can't do anything if there is something chasing them.

If a haster fighter is chasing a mage then the mage runs in circles untill the haste wears off.

If were going to nerf bigsbies then kd needs a nerf. Mabey a time limit.

I don't think kd should be able to be spammed on a mage if he cand do nothing but run.

I don't think scrolls should be able to have the same if not better check as the phyicial spell.

Bigsbies doesn't need a nerf.

People need to learn how to adapt. How to change there stratgy accordingly. Not get acustomed to comming into the forums and complaining to get there way.

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:09 pm

well built mages don't run from fighters. bigby is a very powerful tool and has been since before igms was the problem. you have to physically hit with kd, bigby will knock most ppl down with little problems.

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:48 pm

MasterYoda wrote:I DO think however that the scrolls need to be nerfed. The scrolls should not have the same str/check/save as the same as a spel.

Just make the checks based on level. Then a wizard with enough levels will have a stronger Bigby than a scroll.

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:54 pm

Aye, I understand your guys arguments that we don't want to nerf everything down to a +2 stick but dang. Theres got to be some balance. I mean lets think, if we didn't have anything nerfed Devastating Criticals vs. IGMS all day and bigsbies thrown around. Rogues, Druids, and archers would be found nowhere.

MasterYoda · Post by **MasterYoda** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:21 pm

Accually druids would be a lot better if u could cheese them out archers can be awesome with hips and a hipsing drow rouge with dev crit would be awesome.

Personally I think mages should not be nerfed any more but dev crit should come back.

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:42 pm

MasterYoda wrote:but dev crit should come back.

We now know Master Yoda is mentally insane...

lord_modred · Post by **lord_modred** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:45 pm

as opposed to physically insane?

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:27 pm

JesterOI wrote:
Joran wrote:
So is it possible to rescript bigbies into something like i layed out?
Sorry Cluster for not getting back to you about this - as a matter of fact your post has spurred on a lot of conversation in the dev forums about this very issue, and a possible change to the implementation of Bigsby's will be coming out of it shortly. Also known as, "soon"

Great ideas!
Yeh I just went looking for my post with the bigbies suggestions I had with the formula and everything, but it seems to have gone missing...

Was a huge post too...

Oh well couldn't find it, seems to have disappeared....

This is in respect to the level 9 Bigby spell.

What I had written iirc was something like: (though i think it may have been a bit more intricate... would have held a copy on my side if I had thought it would ever disappear)

Grapple Check:
caster = 1d20 + CasterLevel + CasterMod + FocusEvoc
target = 1d20 + CharacterLevel + DexMod + ArcaneDefEvoc (if any)

If target fails this it goes to a hold check (same thing but with STR)

caster = 1d20 + CasterLevel + CasterMod + FocusEvoc
target = 1d20 + CharacterLevel + StrMod + ArcaneDefEvoc (if any)

Target needs to fail both checks to be held.

The caster has the obvious advantage here if they are pure classed and investing properly in their feats.

It is easier for Wiz and Sorc to get Great INT/CHA where as the non-casters don't have as easy access to Great STR/DEX feats.
Also the Wiz/Sorc can gain +6 from focus feats where as the non-casters can get only +2 if they can even access the feat.

However, as soon as the caster multiclasses and/or invests in other feats they lose the advantage.

The first 20 levels are pretty equal, the mage gaining at most a +4 advantage over a equal levelled/abilitied target.

In the epics this advantage can increase to a possible +11 advantage over an equal levelled target (assuming both started with equal abilities and have continued to invest equally) that hasn't taken Great STR/DEX (in the higher of those 2 abilities) and ArcaneDef:Evoc.

+11 isn't bad considering mages have limited spells and the higher hp of targets in epic. Then considering the extreme ease of obtaining massive qauntities of dismissal it starts to seem questionable...

The +11 advantage requires 13 feats to acquire and the caster to be pure class with the target taking no ArcaneDef:Evoc, Great STR/DEX, or DD/RDD prc's.
+11 well worked for...

I remember trying to work BAB into the equation somewhere also, forget if I did have it in the final or not.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:49 pm

All that being said, I think that there should only be 1 bigby out from a caster at one time.
If this becomes the case, the mage should get some sort of artificial bonus to the 7,8,9 bigby spells.

The above suggestion was for the level 9 variant.
The level 8 is pretty much the same atm, but I was thinking that if the target made the checks vs the spell they could have a movement speed decrease that skips immunity/freedom.