Strengthening fighters v. casters

[JesterOI]

If a hipser is knockeddown, stunned, charmed, dazed, paralyzed, sleepified, or anything like that during combat they should be brought out of stealth mode while in that condition.

Sure you can argue that bigbies should be a little strong than whatever because there can only have one of them on a target at once.... However, there can be a bigbies on several targets at once, so a mage can effectively have a whole group kd'd... Which is fine.

[P. Fricebottle]

Something you're forgetting about the whole bigsby vs kd thing is that bigsbys can at max be cast twice in a round, assuming the mage is high enough lvl to cast quickened spells, otherwise one bigsby per round. You can knockdown as many times as you can attack. If they're not knocked down the first time, then they got 3 more comin at em.

Also the necro build is mentioned above is probably a multi class character. If you're going to argue about fighter vs wizard then you gotta stick to core classes. If you're gettin into multi classing then you can definately make plenty of multi class characters that can go toe to toe with a mage of any build. A mage can't cast a spell at someone he can't see who'd hiding, then the range of a knockdown doesn't matter AND you have multiple knockdowns before he can get his first slow spell off. Time it right and he might not even be buffed. Easy kill then.

Yes, sure a fighter can make 4 KD attempts in one round, but each consecutive attempt is more likely to fail than another. With Epic Mage Armor, I've seen mages with about 52 AC (all buffs of course). You could make a successful hit against all their buffs the first attack, maybe even the second if you get lucky. But, lets say a fighter with +40/+35/+30/+25 tries to KD a mage 4 times in one round (mage has 52 AC). First round, fighter must roll at least a 13 to hit (not too shabby) so he has about a 60% chance to miss. Second attack, must roll an 18 with a 90% chance to miss. Each round after that, is pretty much impossible.

Lets not mention you have to actually catch up to the mage at first, and since they got haste its hard if you're not LA. Also improved invisibility is hard to see through if you even want to land a knockdown.

A lot of builds I come across are mages and have spot cheesed in, so thats their max spot +20 from true seeing vs. my hide and move silently. Besides, mages can just stop a fighter rright in his tracks with a bigsby, no need to worry about being KDed after that.

[Kromix]

Something you're forgetting about the whole bigsby vs kd thing is that bigsbys can at max be cast twice in a round, assuming the mage is high enough lvl to cast quickened spells, otherwise one bigsby per round. You can knockdown as many times as you can attack. If they're not knocked down the first time, then they got 3 more comin at em.

Also the necro build is mentioned above is probably a multi class character. If you're going to argue about fighter vs wizard then you gotta stick to core classes. If you're gettin into multi classing then you can definately make plenty of multi class characters that can go toe to toe with a mage of any build. A mage can't cast a spell at someone he can't see who'd hiding, then the range of a knockdown doesn't matter AND you have multiple knockdowns before he can get his first slow spell off. Time it right and he might not even be buffed. Easy kill then.

LIES to the highlite... only if you are unexperienced mage u cant hit what you cant see... there are many spells to shred the SDs

a ma

[JesterOI]

I want my Mass Charm spell

[Elagneros]

I think a reason why mantle pots aren't brewable is that they make you pretty much invulnerable towards mages.

Except for the fact that those mages right now are pretty near invulnerable unless you got total n00bs running them.

[Elagneros]

LIES to the highlite... only if you are unexperienced mage u cant hit what you cant see... there are many spells to shred the SDs

Yeah, HiPSers are pretty much no match for the mage if they aren't mantled. Mages can through on plenty of spells to buff Spot/Listen; and it's already well known the Spot and Listen max out about 20 points higher than Hide/Move Silently. Then have the mage throw in a solar and the fight is pretty much on his side, because even if he can't see the HiPSer, usually the solar can.

[PeregrineV]

Ring of Spell Turning.

The summons issue is different. If an Epic Summon is being sicced on you, beat it down or run.

Or an item that holds charges of Dimissal(40).

I think balance will always be an issue in PvP. But, it's fun to discuss it.

[JesterOI]

There's already dismissal rods...
But I'm betting they will be useless considering the will saves on the summons.

[Mental]

I disagree bout spot n lsiten maxing 20 above hide and move silent. Bet I can get a rangers hide at lvl 40 about 10 to 20 more than spot even vs a cleric caster.

[Elagneros]

There's already dismissal rods...
But I'm betting they will be useless considering the will saves on the summons.

They usually are. The rods tend to be a bit ineffective against even mob summons, so player summons aren't affected that much (although I still try).

[JesterOI]

What about 10 or 20 higher than a bard's listen skill?
Amplify + Clairaudience = +30 listen

[Elagneros]

I disagree bout spot n lsiten maxing 20 above hide and move silent. Bet I can get a rangers hide at lvl 40 about 10 to 20 more than spot even vs a cleric caster.

I've seen people crunch the numbers here before. Here's a good post that pretty much sums it up:

http://www.nsrealm.com/boards/viewtopic ... 6043#26043

[Holghask]

Yep...I did alot of the crunching...max hide for a halfling ranger/sd is 111...max spot for an elf caster cleric/rogue is 111 as well!!!! (that's not counting Great Dex Feats for the hider and Great Wisdom feats for the spotter...otherwise it's about 115 hide and 115 spot)

I'll take that 111 spot vs your 111 hide any day and spot you waaaaay more often than you'd like (pretty much all of the time)...

Then have the mage throw in a solar and the fight is pretty much on his side, because even if he can't see the HiPSer, usually the solar can.

Correction: On NS, the solar always can. The solar and other summons or shapes that have True Seeing as a default ability have the True Seeing applied as normal in the local game...and in the local game, True Seeing allows one to automatically spot any hider no matter what their hide is (check the local description of the spell True Seeing). That's why solars can chase down any hider. The devs on NS altered TS to not auto-spot any hider, but rather only grant a +20 to spot for the caster. I really like this alteration (great idea devs!)...however this alteration should be applied to the summons and epic shapes natural TS abilities as well to make the effects of TS more standardized...then hiders might have an easier time.

[Sparky]

Hey Jester, you forgot Bardsong for another 5 minimum listen.
So SD's have it even worse off against a Bard.

[JesterOI]

Ya, level 30 bardsong does something like +20 something to skills...
Then there's cursesong that does -20 something...
Bad news for hipser's.