2-handed/double-ended weapons proposal

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Flailer
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2-handed/double-ended weapons proposal

Post by Flailer »

Okay, I may regret bringing this into the public forum, but here goes... :wink:

We've been debating this internally for a few weeks, so here's our proposal to make 2 handed and double ended weapons more attactive and useful.

Damage boost for 2-handed weapons:

In general, the advantage of a 2-handed weapon is the 1.5 STR bonus to damage. Losing AC to gain this is probably a balanced tradeoff. However, since we introducted damage immunities and damage resistances to shields, it tips the scales in favor of using a shield rather than a 2-hander.

So, two options: you could add defensive bonuses to the 2-hander or you could increase it's damage. The majority opinion internally was that 2-handed weapons shouldn't gain defensive bonuses, but should get greater offensive bonuses.

So, our proposal is to make the damage bonus that's currently applied to 2-handed weapons also be 1.5 times greater than their one-handed counterparts. Also, massive criticals on 2-handers will be 1.5 times as large as the one-handed weapons. So, an example of some 2-handed weapons:

Damage Bonus:
Level 16: 2d10, avg 11 [one handed weapons of that level at 2d6, avg 7]
Level 21: 2d12, avg 13 [one handed weapons of that level at 2d8, avg 9]
Level 25: 2d12 + 1d6, avg 16.5 [one handed at 2d10, avg 11]

Massive Crits:
Level 16: Massive Crits 2d10, avg 11 [one handed weapons of that level at 2d6, avg 7]
Level 21: Massive Crits 2d10, avg 11 [one handed weapons of that level at 2d6, avg 7]
Level 25: Massive Crits 2d10 + 1d4, avg 13.5[one handed at 2d8, avg 9]


Double-ended weapons :

In a similar manner to 2-handed weapons, giving up not just AC but damage immunities and resistances by not having a shield makes using a double-ended weapon fairly pointless. So, we're propsing adding some defensive abilities to double-ended weapons (thought of as using the center of the weapon to block incoming attacks).

Examples of possible changes:

Defensive boosts:
Level 13: 5% damage imm, [shields at 20% imm, 10 resist]
Level 16: 10% damage imm, [shields at 25% imm, 10 resist]
Level 21: 10% damage imm, 5 resist [shields at 25% imm, 15 resist]
Level 25: 10% damage imm, 10 resist [shields at 25% imm, 15 resist]


We'd try to incorporate some of these bonuses into lower level weapons as well, but it gets trickier as you go lower since you can only do things in increments of 5/- or 5%. Maybe 2-handers get keen a level earlier or something.

Comments? Suggestions? Points of view?
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Post by MasterYoda »

I think its real nice flailer....

Only suggestions...

Mabey Massive crits should be a little higher...

Hence a battle axe critting in one hand is good but to crit someone with all your might with a Great axe would be detremental.....

The keen a level earlier is nice as well

thats my $.02
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Post by Death Dealer1 »

sounds like its really going somewhere.

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Post by PeregrineV »

Don't really use 2 handed weapons (yet), but it looks reasonable, not too overpowering and not too weak.

Would it apply to staves and quarterstaves?

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Post by Flailer »

Staves are one handed. Quarterstaves are 2-handed, so yes.
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Post by kingfatzo »

heh i like it ! :D
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Post by JesterOI »

You do this one day after I delete my level 28 scyther!!! Booo....
Seriously though, I just deleted him yesterday...

He worked fine in Ice Giants, though he wasn't able to go there till much later than a shielded warrior. Once he got to zons though even with all his special feats and abilities, X4 crits, etc. he was getting whomped compared to shielded warriors.


My thoughts:

Max out massive crits (a straight up 20 dmg) on 2handed from the start! (not 2ended though)

Increase the prevalence and power of Vamp Regen on 2handed and 2ended weapons. Or put both Regen AND Vamp Regen on the weapons in equal amounts.
or
For DoubleEnded make them have vamp regen = enhancement bonus. Four 2handed have vamp regen = 2 x enhancement bonus
Both get regular regen = enhancement bonus.

Maybe use Dmg Reduction in addition to Resistance on the weapons. Make the dmg reduction = enhancement of weapon, so +3 weapon gets XX/+3 reduction.

Include lower levels of dmg immunity on the weapons, but include all 3 dmg types.

Shields... Remove the bonus AC and lower Monster AB's by 3 across the board, except for ones with CR 11 and below.

Include STR bonus on them? +1 @ lvl 20 items, then an additional +1 every 2nd level of req on gear after (lvl 25 items would still have +1, but the lvl after (lvl 30?) would have +2, etc)
Or could make it CON instead.

Avoid using bonus DMG types that are the same as any of the Base DMG types on the weapons. So a Greataxe would have whatever bonus dmg, but it would not include slashing dmg type. Scythe for example would have whatever bonus dmg but that bonus damage wouldn't be slashing or peircing dmg type.
This way the weapon retains it's extra dmg from enhancement bonus as well as whatever bonus dmg it has.

Skill Bonus for Heal?

Use more non-resistable DMG types for bonus dmg, magic, divine, negative, or sonic.

On Hit: Wounding could be tried, though dmg resistance/reduction can make it useless.

On Hit: Vorpal !!! j/k... (Though I am still convinced that if you gave on hit vorpal to the penguins in FD hilarity would ensue!)

More On Hit: Cast Spell For example: On Hit: Call Lightning (X) X being equal to the enhancement bonus of weapon.


There's a few ideas to look over. :D
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Post by Binkyuk »

big swingers having bonus offense makes sense (what's defensive about a greatsword?) while the double weapons being defensive also sounds right (something akin to being able to use one end to parry, and still be poised to attack with the other).
In summary i think you have it bang on.

a question is what to do with non-physical damage. a shield can (and usually does) have some elemental immunity on it, but no resist, so x1.5ing it might be a bit disproportionate.
there's no direct analogue between elemental and physical damage and resists, so i have no great suggestions, but maybe wing it and go for x1.3.

in a related point don't forget a small amount of elemental resist on special double weapons.

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Post by PeregrineV »

I think the idea looks good to give the 2 handed weapons a leg up, not to make them replace shields. Shields are inherently better than 2-handed weapons, but 2-handed weapons would do more damage when they hit. Flailer has them doing more than the STR 1.5 to help them out, but cranking them up to replace shields shouldn't be the point.

If I'm wrong, then bring out the +whatever robes that are equal to +3 full plate. 8)

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Post by Elagneros »

Higher crits? My god, you know how much crits do NOW with 2-handers? And the fact that most of the 16+ weapons are all keen? Weaker mobs already do like 70 or so damage on a crit with a keen weapon like axes. At the upper end of the scale are the Amazon Lanceresses that can regularly dish out 130 damage on a crit, which they get rather often, and you guys want it worse?
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Post by JesterOI »

Massive Crit adds the dmg post multiplication.
So a sword with 1d8dmg 18-20 X2 and massive crit 5 would do 2d8 on a crit plus 5 dmg.
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Post by Aarkon Draco »

what about toons who Dual wield? in this suggested revamp they geth the shaft no extra perks no deffensive bonus halflings and gnomes especaly since they cant use 2h weapons or doubble weapons. i dont know if its possible but a weapon set? IE a rapier / dagger combo that when both equipped gives +4 ac.

on the subject of weapons i would also like to touch on the fact there are no good kamas for lvl 20 or under to use (another weapon that is highly dual wielded) i dont know wether this is intentional or not but my monk wm would realy like something atleast tolerable before 25th level. id say on par with the 3 gloves from the monistary ( hands of the master ect) would be good.

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Post by Death Dealer1 »

there is a low lvl kama...lvl 9 i think. dual wielding imply's you are a dex build anyway. i had a rogue that dual wielded and had really decent ac no problems...he could solo most of the amazon bosses and a few PK'rs looking for disarms..*cough* Havok *cough*

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Post by Flailer »

The benefit of being a dual-wield is that you can take lots of feats in a particular weapon (improved crit, weapon foci, weapon specializations, WM feats, etc) and dual wield that weapon and do lots of damage. However, if you get in a bind and start getting pummeled, you simply equip a shield for lots of defense with only a sacrifice of 2 attacks.

A double ended weapon user takes lots of feats to specialize in a weapon and then either has the option of using one-handed weapon and a shield (thus loosing the weapon bonus feats he took for the double ended weapon) or keeping the double ended weapon in his hands and continue getting pummeled.

Capice?
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Post by JesterOI »

Would be sweet if the katana and/or [censored] sword could be used 1 or 2 handed...
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