Arg, There Be More Gripes...

Roco Bottombutts · Post by **Roco Bottombutts** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:56 pm

One more quick question to you all. I think I can take the fact that clerics get a better BA than my melee of the same level, but since Heal and Harm have been nerfed (much like other servers and the new and improved 3.5 Pen n Paper rules), shouldn't Greater Restoration be nerfed too?

I hate it when my melee is going toe to toe with a cleric who is posing as a meleer (high BA due to stacking buffs...see my other post, and Knockdown), and I manage to get them down close to death and they can heal all their 300-400 hit points with 1 spell!!!!!

Furthermore, Greater Restoration can be extended!!! This is a bioware bug too. Thus, a cleric can have 6 or so 7th level spell slots of Greater Restoration, then 6 or so more of 8th lev extended Greater Restorations!!!! If Heal and Harm are nerfed on this server, why the hell isn't Greater Restoration?

I've even seen clerics fully heal 900 hp shapechangers with 1 Greater Restoration spell too. Help us melees!

Incidentally, anyone know if Greater Restoration kills undead outright in frozen crypts? If it does, then this spell needs some tweak'n.

Thanks for the rant. I'm coming you pesky cleric meleers, gonna show you dwarven hospitality when your spells get fixed.

MasterYoda · Post by **MasterYoda** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:19 pm

Roco Bottombutts wrote:One more quick question to you all. I think I can take the fact that clerics get a better BA than my melee of the same level, but since Heal and Harm have been nerfed (much like other servers and the new and improved 3.5 Pen n Paper rules), shouldn't Greater Restoration be nerfed too?

I hate it when my melee is going toe to toe with a cleric who is posing as a meleer (high BA due to stacking buffs...see my other post, and Knockdown), and I manage to get them down close to death and they can heal all their 300-400 hit points with 1 spell!!!!!

Furthermore, Greater Restoration can be extended!!! This is a bioware bug too. Thus, a cleric can have 6 or so 7th level spell slots of Greater Restoration, then 6 or so more of 8th lev extended Greater Restorations!!!! If Heal and Harm are nerfed on this server, why the hell isn't Greater Restoration?

I've even seen clerics fully heal 900 hp shapechangers with 1 Greater Restoration spell too. Help us melees!

Incidentally, anyone know if Greater Restoration kills undead outright in frozen crypts? If it does, then this spell needs some tweak'n.

Thanks for the rant. I'm coming you pesky cleric meleers, gonna show you dwarven hospitality when your spells get fixed.

ok here is where i tear your comment apart and make you run to a corner crying...........

Better BA only comes into effect if They get to buff before hand........

Harm and heal have been nerfed but greater restoration is supposed to heal all effects...... No it cant kill undead i made this mistake on undead many times.....

As far as the shifter getting healed 900 HP .... looks like you need to work on your people skills cause if you are a tank (especially in RK) id be more than happy to throw some buffs on ya and a couple GR at you and have you go on a rampage...... Make some friends.... This server IMO wasnt made to solo the whole place yourselfe (Although i know many who can)...it gets boring and slow and makes you come rant and rave on the forums like this.....

Not to mention you get 4 attacks a round as opposed to the 3 from a cleric...

and the big point i have been trying to tell all you cleric bashers.....

WE NEED TIME TO BUFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i cant tell you how many times i get done resting the out of the shadows, or from behind, or out of a random portal .... i get jacked up.....

Mabey you should try a more of a magical tank......

Try Pali, or Ranger.....

Hell make a dwarven cleric .............. They tend to tear through crap real easy.....

Roco Bottombutts · Post by **Roco Bottombutts** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:26 pm

Calm down little green guy. I get your answer. You want Greater Restoration to stay as it is. Anyone else agree/disagree?

My point is why nerf Heal if Greater Restoration isn't nerfed too?

MasterYoda · Post by **MasterYoda** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:36 pm

heal sint supposed to heal everything......

Greater Restoration is..........

Thats y it is a higher level spell.......

it also gets rid of 99% of stat and abilitiy decreases.

I think it should stay as it is ....

Shieldcracker · Post by **Shieldcracker** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:44 pm

I always took it to mean that Heal was nerfed so you had to devote more levels to cleric in order to get access to the "get all your hp back" spell by two or four levels depending on your domains. Not necessarily to remove the "get all your hp back" effect, just make it harder to get. Unfortunately, they did it with a spell that can be cast twice as often as any other level 7 spell. I assume that's a Bioware thing, or that the Developers of NS don't really mind, because it's been that way as long as I can remember.

And while I agree it can be irritating to fight a caster of any sort with a non-caster, methodically nerfing the casters' spells isn't the best solution. I think Greater Restoration ought to stay as it is, and just find some other recourse for warriors.

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:02 pm

MasterYoda wrote:heal sint supposed to heal everything......

Greater Restoration is..........

Actually, wrong.

Originally in pnp, heal restored all hps, and removed effects like poison. In the revised 3e rules, heal was capped at healing 10 hp/caster level which I believe is what we have here.

Greater resotration in pnp does not do anything for hps. It's just for restoring level and ability drains:

SRD wrote: Restoration, Greater
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 7
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 10 minutes

This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it dispels all negative levels afflicting the healed creature. This effect also reverses level drains by a force or creature, restoring the creature to the highest level it had previously attained. The drained levels are restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is no more than one week per caster level.

Greater restoration also dispels all magical effects penalizing the creature’s abilities, cures all temporary ability damage, and restores all points permanently drained from all ability scores. It also eliminates fatigue and exhaustion, and removes all forms of insanity, confusion, and similar mental effects. Greater restoration does not restore levels or Constitution points lost due to death.

XP Cost
500 XP.

Restoring all HP was an addition by Bioware it seems, though the reason for it eludes me, since heal also restores all hp in out-of-the-box NWN.

MasterYoda · Post by **MasterYoda** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:07 pm

^^ wasnt trying to compare to pnp ... although if everything was pnp then clerics would be even stronger

But langy-poo is right for pnp , i was meaning as far as nwn goes it has allways meant to be like that

Post by **Yonwe** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:14 pm

Aye, I too think Bioware jumped another shark with having G. Restore heal any HP at all, let alone all HP in one go. As far as their reasonings go, I'll bet you it was to affect NPC healer-characters of the original campaign, such as Aribeth in the Temple of Tyr; as we all know Bioware does this as lazily as humanly possible, I'm sure it seemed like a nice little shortcut to stick all-HP-cured on a G. Restore, and bam! they saved themselves about ten minutes of coding so they could go home early and breathe ammonia fumes.

That said, I think the much more violent nature of online, multiplayer NWN requires a greater abundance of healing than PnP does, as much as it hurts me as a PnP DM to watch those little yellow and blue swirls fly about a person as they heal to full. Clerics are the healing class, and in an environment as built around combat as NS4 is, they should eventually get some ability to totally wipe away all damage. The spell Heal is better off here as the 3.5 rules are at 10/level, since Druid also gets it, and Druids shouldn't be AS good healers as Clerics.

Of course, an equitable solution to the problem is just plain impossible under the NWN engine, since all spells have a casting time of one standard action (under PnP rules); G. Restore would be great as-is if only it actually took bloody 10 minutes to cast, and cost 500xp per casting. But, we DMs can't have it all... or even most, or any, at that

Roco Bottombutts · Post by **Roco Bottombutts** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:29 pm

Hmmm...maybe use this as a compromise:

Make Greater Restoration heal 10 hp/level just like Heal in addition to restoring ability damage. High level clerics (30th lev) should still be fine being able to heal 300 hp.

Making the spell only heal 10 hp/level means no more uber cheese of fully healing the Dragonshape for 1000 hp with 1 spell!!!

Maybe tweak the spell to make it do damage to undead just like Heal too if possible. Maybe that will appease some of the clerics out there. I just think the full heal coupled with being able to make it extended with Extend Spell makes Greater Restoration a little to powerful for this mod.

$chase$ · Post by **$chase$** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:34 pm

i have a idea,,i realize its a newer idea, and some may not like it.its ummm well umm PLAY THE GAME AND HAVE FUN

Roco Bottombutts · Post by **Roco Bottombutts** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:40 pm

Arg, good idear.

MasterYoda · Post by **MasterYoda** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:59 pm

Thats y your my hero chase

..... although i cant play right now as i am at work

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:59 pm

Just pointing out that it doesn't matter much if a cleric can use extend to get furhter castings or Greater Restore since they could do the same with Still or Silent feats.
Then there is also the face that Greater Restore is scribable. I have characters that regularily run around with 200 or 300 greater restore scrolls on them, so this also makes the fact that clerics can use Extend to cast more Greater Restores a non-issue.

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:51 pm

Yonwe wrote:Aye, I too think Bioware jumped another shark with having G. Restore heal any HP at all, let alone all HP in one go. As far as their reasonings go, I'll bet you it was to affect NPC healer-characters of the original campaign, such as Aribeth in the Temple of Tyr; as we all know Bioware does this as lazily as humanly possible, I'm sure it seemed like a nice little shortcut to stick all-HP-cured on a G. Restore, and bam! they saved themselves about ten minutes of coding so they could go home early and breathe ammonia fumes.

That could be the case, but not really necessary, since they could have just as easily scripted an effect that restored all the PC hps and removed negative effects. Hell, I could probably do that, and my scripting abilities are far from good.

seriouslynow · Post by **seriouslynow** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:35 pm

I've read a number of times that in order for NWN to appeal to a wider audience (particularly one that doesn't understand much about D&D rules) Bioware made some things better to favor people with no clue so that they wouldn't become completely stuck in the campaign and unable to continue. If that's true maybe that mindset led to overpowered versions of spells emerging... or not

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