CR rework

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:52 am

Ice Giants have become a very popular place from around 18th level through 30th. A mob of low end characters can still make it through Ice Giants with ease until they can take on the bosses and with the amount of bosses throughout the network of caves it makes for easier leveling even at the high end. The network of caves is much easier to fight in because you can stack the giants instead of being swarmed as you do in Amazons. The two other areas in FD aren't worth the xp that they provide because the Frozen Skeletons have far too many HP for being immune to crits and sneak attack and Ice Efreets with only one area is far to easy to clear with no real bosses. (Yes I know there are two Ice Efreet areas and the second one has a boss but who in their right mind wants to get Hell Balled 3 times in a row for a boss with no drop?) Perhaps raising the CR of the Frozen Skeletons, Guardians ect. or lowering their HP while adding more spell protection to prevent Clerics, Wizards and Sorcerers easy xp may help deversify the leveling areas. At the moment even Epic Amazons are not worth the xp at the high end unless you simply go from boss to boss ignoring everything else except the occasional Lancer. Whereas Sunken City is nice for it's items even the xp down there is much worse then what you can get from the giants and sometimes just as challenging depending on the build.

Everytime I take a character to another location because of overcrowding in the Ice Giant Caves I come right back there because it is simply the best place for xp in the epic levels. Ice Giants have become the Giant Mountain of Epic levels and with no place else to go for easy leveling I can only see this problem getting worse with the flood of new players we have been getting. Devs, please help with this CR balance issue before it is forgotten. I understand new areas are being worked on but unless we can get the areas we have properly balanced some areas could even be forgotten with inactivity. I have taken more then a few new players to areas that they never new existed because most of the regulars only level along the same predetermined xp routes including Goblins, Ogres, Tree Smashers, Tundra Wolves, Ice Giants to level 30. Certain builds may excel in other areas such as clerics in undead infested zones but the general populace all run the same paths for xp. Hopefully something can be done about this if this server is going to gain any more population then it already has.

MLoki

lordvan52681 · Post by **lordvan52681** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:13 pm

I agree with the the undead part; teir HP are way too high for the xp given.

However I deisagree that they need special abilities if their HP were dropped. they already are imune to sneaks, crits, fear and everything else undead is imune to, plus they are imune to lvl 6 and below spells. Whenever a team im with while playing my sorcerer fights them, i just sit back, because its not worth the wasted high end spells to kill them.

I also want to point out that (in my opinion) the trolls are right on as far as difficulty vs xp gain, however their lovation is horrible. You must get past MUCH harder ice giants in orderer to get to the trolls, which makes them unused. By the time a character can safely get past ice giants, they need stronger opponents than trolls.

Post by **Flailer** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:20 pm

As an aside, the Ice Giant maps probably need a rework anyway - they're really hard on the CPU as the AI pathfinding is constantly trying to find ways around the log jams that form in the bottlenecked areas. Open areas are not only harder, but more CPU friendly.

Celorn · Post by **Celorn** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:04 pm

not only that, but the actual layout of the giant lair is totally illogical - as proved by the attempt at matching the maps up side by side, some map exits lead to zones that don't logically meet on the other side it's just whacky.

so, if they are going to be reworked to make them more open, hopefully they can be put into a kind of matrix so that they line up properly, and maybe make the ice trolls entrance the closest one to the town...

also... why are there 2 Seer's is it the same giant moving between zones? and why does the CR differ so much with that one? I've seen 33, 32, 29, 26 and 25... very strange.

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:38 pm

i think your high if you think regular giants give more than epic zons....my lvl 26 was getting around 115xp or so for giants and about 200+ for most of the zons....and i was all alone.

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:34 pm

lordvan52681 wrote:

snip

However I deisagree that they need special abilities if their HP were dropped. they already are imune to sneaks, crits, fear and everything else undead is imune to, plus they are imune to lvl 6 and below spells. Whenever a team im with while playing my sorcerer fights them, i just sit back, because its not worth the wasted high end spells to kill them.

snip

Obviously you have never been in there with a Cleric casting Undeath to Death. You can rack up the xp with just that spell alone pre 20th... Not to mention getting ahold of one of them with control undead. Just suggesting if they raise the CR they may want to look into those things.

MLoki

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:40 pm

Death Dealer1 wrote:i think your high if you think regular giants give more than epic zons....my lvl 26 was getting around 115xp or so for giants and about 200+ for most of the zons....and i was all alone.

Not talking about the basic mobs I'm talking xp/hour. If you do the Ice Giants circuit there are 1-2 Bosses per Ice Giant Cave. 4 caves and 7 maps all together so if you just go around and around the bosses keep respawning and the xp keeps rolling in. Not to mention the overpopulation of some Giant maps makes the xp even that more plentifull. Where in Zons you have 5-6 bosses total depending on what time of day and if you can open locks. The mobs are tougher and it takes longer to kill them either through melee or by spells. Their is a greater chance of dying due to Lancer crits or Ritualists. Not to mention the bosses are not easily soloed even at higher levels. Yes I know it can be done but in general most people prefer the quick and easy way as opposed to the challenge of Zons.

MLoki

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:06 am

lordvan52681 wrote:I also want to point out that (in my opinion) the trolls are right on as far as difficulty vs xp gain, however their lovation is horrible. You must get past MUCH harder ice giants in orderer to get to the trolls, which makes them unused. By the time a character can safely get past ice giants, they need stronger opponents than trolls.

I totally agree. Trolls of any kind aren't worth fighting here (except maybe the ones in the Underdark and under the barn). The ones on Giant Mountain are too high up, to get to them players have to be able to get past the much tougher Chunkers, Tree Smashers, Ice Walkers, and Skull Eaters. Those trolls wuld work better attached to that cave near the last part of the Ogre Pass than nearly at the top of Giant Mountain.

As for the Ice Trolls, they're totally not worth it. I've never heard of any equipment drops from them, and fighting the small groups of giants in the outer tunnels is usually worth more than trying to take on the trolls with their damage resistance and high regeneration. And like Lord Van said, if you have to get through the giants to get to the trolls, you might as well fight the giants anyway.

Core · Post by **Core** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:25 am

I agree a melee character can chop through 2-3 scouts or sentianls in the same time it would take to chop down 1 troll guardian or 1 ice skele. Altho being a cleric is nice for skeles so i don't know how they got balanced.

Epistaxis · Post by **Epistaxis** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:15 am

I like the frozen skeletons as they are easy for a cleric and I like the idea of having areas that are easy for some classes and hard for other classes. It helps prevent the same cheesy builds from soloing every area on the server.

It would be great to have a few areas that requires a rogue to complete, filled with deadly traps and locked doors, a special area enchantment that prevents spellcasters from resting all the time to memorize knock.

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:22 am

Epistaxis wrote:I like the frozen skeletons as they are easy for a cleric and I like the idea of having areas that are easy for some classes and hard for other classes. It helps prevent the same cheesy builds from soloing every area on the server.

It would be great to have a few areas that requires a rogue to complete, filled with deadly traps and locked doors, a special area enchantment that prevents spellcasters from resting all the time to memorize knock.

Amen! We need stuff like this to make all the rogue skills worth while, because the Bandit Houses west of Silver Road: Avendell and the Slave Quarters in Amazons are the only places locked. These skills did come in use though when a DM started planting tons of traps everywhere, unfortunately I was only 3 in rogue with more fighter so Fish had to get them.

Spura · Post by **Spura** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:28 am

zons are definitely crap xp. Ice giants have CR 23 to 25. I think warriors have 25. And they are all easy to kill at 20, and you never fight too many at once.

Amazons on the other hand are way harder to kill, hit way harder and their CRs are in the same range CR 23 to 25 for dervishes, slingers, ritualist, .... The only non-boss mob on zons that gives more exp than giants is Lancer CR 27 or 28 I think. So zons are way harder and have only 1 type of non-boss mob with more CR than giants. Makes for some sucky xp.

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:45 pm

my PM whips up on zons all alone....when the undead summons weren't broken.

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:17 pm

I am not saying they are that much tougher and I agree for a PM zons are easy because they are immune to the massive damage that lancers put out. Overall though Giants are more plentiful and have more areas to spawn then Zons and the bosses are easier to walk through and respawn more often. So in the same period of time you can get more xp in Ice Giants then you can in Zons. This is why Ice Giants are becoming over crowded. Skellies only give good xp till mid 20's and even then a melee character has to spend far too much time hacking through them. I do have to agree with the placement problem with Ice Trolls as well though. They are easily overlooked when you have to get through Ice Giants even to attempt them in the first place. They are a lower CR and not as plentifull with no real drops to speak of.

MLoki