Help with a build!

[Gruesome Wolf_ns3]

Hi,
I have been making a tank and freaked out last night before crashing because I am not sure whether I screwed something up. I am making a build that was posted here by Rocco. Here it is:

Your first four ability level increases go into CON, then the other 6 in STR.

Feats
FL 1 - Weapon Focus Rapier, Dodge
FL 2 - Expertise
FL 3 - Mobility
FL 4 - Spring Attack
FL 5 -
FL 6 - Whirlwind, Weapon Specialization Rapier
WM 7 - Weapon of Choice Rapier
WM 8 -
WM 9 - Toughness
DD 10 -
DD 11 -
DD 12 - Blind Fighting
DD 13 -
DD 14 -
DD 15 - Improved Critical Rapier
DD 16 -
DD 17 -
DD 18 - Improved Combat Expertise
DD 19 -
WM 20 -
WM 21 - Great Strength I
WM 22 -
WM 23 -
DD 24 - Great Strength II
DD 25 -
DD 26 -
DD 27 - Epic Weapon Focus Rapier Epic, Great Strength III
DD 28 -
DD 29 -
FL 30 - Epic Weapon Specialization Rapier
DD 31 -
DD 32 - Epic DR I
DD 33 - Great Strength IV
DD 34 -
DD 35 -
DD 36 - Epic Prowess, Epic DR II
DD 37 -
DD 38 -
DD 39 - Armor Skin
DD 40 - Epic DR III

I just reached 20th level last night. At 20th, I am supposed to take WM. But.. I also noticed that DD was not even an option! Have I messed something up? Is there something I don't understand about leveling and 20th level or something? I am new to these tailored builds. Any explanation as to why DD was not available would be appreciated. I have to take WM until 24th level anyway, but want to know why DD was not available now so that perhaps I can take whatever missing skills or feats I may need to fix the situation.

At 19th, I was F-6 / WM-3 / DD-10. As you can see from the level progression above, I had taken several DD's in a row. I just want to understand why DD was not an option at 20th level.

[Forge_ns3]

Are you of any lawful alignment? This is an often forgot pre-req for DD. If you aren't lawful, all is not lost... a trip to the cave of judgement can change your alignment for you.

[Gruesome Wolf_ns3]

I am definitely lawful. I just double checked this morning. And I did get 10 levels of DD already which required lawful alignment.

[Forge_ns3]

wait... so, at 19th lvl did you have 10 lvls of DD or 9?

EDIT: NM.. answered my own question. I thought you had said you had 9 lvls of DD.. my bad.

The reason you couldn't take DD at 20th is because you can only have 10 levels of a given PrC as a pre-epic character (ie - below character lvl 21). Taking DD at lvl 20 would have given you 11 DD lvls pre-epic, which isn't allowed. Once you become an epic character, you can take more levels in a PrC. You should be fine.

[Gruesome Wolf_ns3]

awesome! thanks!

I had hoped that it was some sort of fundamental build rule that I just don't know rather than something horrible like, not enough strength or wrong feats or whatever.

I can just go back to leveling without worries. Thanks man.

[Razarr69_ns3]

Hey Gruesome, I got a question on the build...why you choosing Rapier for a STR build? Granted the threat range with a rapier is better but the damage multiplier is a lowly x2 (which goes x3 with WM5). I would think that at the higher levels the higher threat range will be less and less imnportant since your to hit roll is going to need to be in the threat range that an Ax would fall into anyway.

In other words...a rapier get nat threat of 18-20, keen takes that to 15-20, Improved Crit takes it down to 11-20, add WM7 to that and you end up with a Crit Threat Range of 9-20. Sounds great, but...

How many mobs are you going to hit with your rapier when you roll a 9 anyway? Not many, I would think. Certainly not many that are going to be a threat to you.

Now take an Ax. WM5 gets your dmage multiplier up to x4
Threat range ends up being 15-20 once you get WM7, Impr Crit, and a Keen weapon. Now you are still not guarantee'd a hit rolling a 15 with the build you mentioned (max AB of 57 at lvl 40).

But, to each their own. I just wanted to point out the limited benefit of a huge threat range.

[Gruesome Wolf_ns3]

I just picked rapier because it was the weapon in the build and the crit range sounded nice.

My toon is 37th now and uses a triton anyway and its damage doesn't seem much different than axe wielders or anyone else.

The real flaw in the toon that I am learning is the fact that its a STR build, rather than a DEX build.

I just got some cool Divine Robes last night and now I really wish that I had a maxed out DEX rather than STR, because I'd have a great AC and a decent AB still because of finesse.

What I wish the most is that a suit of armor would be made that required a strength of 36+, so that only STR builds could wear it that had the best AC possible, but giving no DEX bonus to try to bring STR builds in line with DEX builds for usefulness.

As it is, the only thing I can do better than a DEX build is carry more. But when they get their +12 from gear, whats really the difference between the 4000 or whatever pounds I can carry and the 2500 pounds they'll be able to carry.

I would say though that I think that swarven waraxes are way cool looking...

[Rocco_ns3]

Hey Gruesome, I got a question on the build...why you choosing Rapier for a STR build? Granted the threat range with a rapier is better but the damage multiplier is a lowly x2 (which goes x3 with WM5). I would think that at the higher levels the higher threat range will be less and less imnportant since your to hit roll is going to need to be in the threat range that an Ax would fall into anyway.

In other words...a rapier get nat threat of 18-20, keen takes that to 15-20, Improved Crit takes it down to 11-20, add WM7 to that and you end up with a Crit Threat Range of 9-20. Sounds great, but...

How many mobs are you going to hit with your rapier when you roll a 9 anyway? Not many, I would think. Certainly not many that are going to be a threat to you.

Now take an Ax. WM5 gets your dmage multiplier up to x4
Threat range ends up being 15-20 once you get WM7, Impr Crit, and a Keen weapon. Now you are still not guarantee'd a hit rolling a 15 with the build you mentioned (max AB of 57 at lvl 40).

But, to each their own. I just wanted to point out the limited benefit of a huge threat range.

Well, if you think the weapon matters and not the threat range, check this thread out:
http://www.nsrealm.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8962

I just picked rapier because it was the weapon in the build and the crit range sounded nice.

My toon is 37th now and uses a triton anyway and its damage doesn't seem much different than axe wielders or anyone else.

The real flaw in the toon that I am learning is the fact that its a STR build, rather than a DEX build.

I just got some cool Divine Robes last night and now I really wish that I had a maxed out DEX rather than STR, because I'd have a great AC and a decent AB still because of finesse.

What I wish the most is that a suit of armor would be made that required a strength of 36+, so that only STR builds could wear it that had the best AC possible, but giving no DEX bonus to try to bring STR builds in line with DEX builds for usefulness.

As it is, the only thing I can do better than a DEX build is carry more. But when they get their +12 from gear, whats really the difference between the 4000 or whatever pounds I can carry and the 2500 pounds they'll be able to carry.

I would say though that I think that swarven waraxes are way cool looking...

Well, if you had questions on the build, you should have come to the source

This is my standard go forth and conquer build, in hind sight, I love DEX builds. I have moved on to my SICK 108 AC bard build. I still bring the STR build out when I know I am going to get my *ss handed to me or for EC runs, but I am tempted to go back and make him a DEX build instead of STR.

Don't fall for the Crit multiplier or base damage on weapons, CRIT range is the way to go, even on none crit mobs. You have to look at the bigger picture, check out the thread above.

[Gruesome Wolf_ns3]

Well, Let me start by saying that I certainly LIKE your build. And to my eye, my damage is very competitive with other's.

My major failing is my equipment at the moment, being well short of a good set. my only realy issue is the growing thought that DEX build would be better, an opinion helped by seeing you, the maker of my build, come to the same conclusion in another thread last week. To top it off, last night, Resu and Exeter helped me get Divine Robes... Armor that would be perfect, IF I were a DEX build. But, as a STR build, I just don't have the ability to get my AC high with armor that has a base AC of 0, however nice its other bonuses might be. So, its still by far the best armor I have, so I wear it, but as a 37th level DD, having an AC of 59 is kind of embarrassing.

And, BTW, anyone on East should feel free to donate to the "Feel sorry for Sherman Abram's AC fund" with an NS equipment you want!

But regarding the crit range, are you saying that razarr is wrong? If a roll of say, 12, doesn't hit the average monster I am fighting at high levels because of my AB, what use was having that 12 be within my crit range?

Certainly for low AC creatures that a roll of 10 can hit, having the strike be a crit is nice, but what are the chances that I am in any danger from something that I can hit with a 10?

I think that was his point.

[Razarr69_ns3]

yup yup, my point exactly.

As far as your choice of armor, I don't know what is best for a STR build. My Bard/Pal/RDD with AC 71 wear Dragon Battle Gear which someone donated to em at level 18. I switch off with the Undead Robes if I need to cast as a bard, though your divince robes are without a doubt much better I would assume.

I would assume that NS Gear heavy armor (if it exists - as I've never seen any of the NS gear ) would be best.

At lvl 37, you should be able to find a group that'll help you go get some.

[Rocco_ns3]

Well, Let me start by saying that I certainly LIKE your build. And to my eye, my damage is very competitive with other's.

My major failing is my equipment at the moment, being well short of a good set. my only realy issue is the growing thought that DEX build would be better, an opinion helped by seeing you, the maker of my build, come to the same conclusion in another thread last week. To top it off, last night, Resu and Exeter helped me get Divine Robes... Armor that would be perfect, IF I were a DEX build. But, as a STR build, I just don't have the ability to get my AC high with armor that has a base AC of 0, however nice its other bonuses might be. So, its still by far the best armor I have, so I wear it, but as a 37th level DD, having an AC of 59 is kind of embarrassing.

And, BTW, anyone on East should feel free to donate to the "Feel sorry for Sherman Abram's AC fund" with an NS equipment you want!

But regarding the crit range, are you saying that razarr is wrong? If a roll of say, 12, doesn't hit the average monster I am fighting at high levels because of my AB, what use was having that 12 be within my crit range?

Certainly for low AC creatures that a roll of 10 can hit, having the strike be a crit is nice, but what are the chances that I am in any danger from something that I can hit with a 10?

I think that was his point.

Hmm, my ac with mine is 70, hardly comparable to the 108 I have with my bard, but a lot better than what you are showing.

The point is that every triton is built the same, with the same damage bonuses. You really have to check out the thread to get a feel for it, but basically, all tritons will do roughly the same damage to any none critable creature. On critable mobs, the multiplier doesn't matter, the crit range does. I have been all over, I can crit anything that can be crit, even when rolling a 10, the ACs around the mod are that low, and that is with Improved expertise on.

You can do what ya want, but if you want my advice, there it is.

[Rocco_ns3]

yup yup, my point exactly.

As far as your choice of armor, I don't know what is best for a STR build. My Bard/Pal/RDD with AC 71 wear Dragon Battle Gear which someone donated to em at level 18. I switch off with the Undead Robes if I need to cast as a bard, though your divince robes are without a doubt much better I would assume.

I would assume that NS Gear heavy armor (if it exists - as I've never seen any of the NS gear ) would be best.

At lvl 37, you should be able to find a group that'll help you go get some.

It exists, it is nice, I used it, there are many too choose from. BTW, I have an 80 AC with improved expertise, fairly good for a STR build, but I hate to say it, DEX is the way to go. Even with Low Hit points.

[Gruesome Wolf_ns3]

I read the thread, and it makes sense to me as to why the tritons are similar.

But I am not sure that the crit range discussions in it take razarr's point into account, which is that AB is also a very important aspect if you are looking at the value of larger crit ranges. Saying that some weapon will crit-hit twice as often is untrue if you are fighting things that need a higher hit number.

If I had some godly AB of 90 or something, there is no doubt in my mind that a 10-20 crit range is the greatest invention ever.

But, I am 37th, and my AB is like 53 or 54. The next time I am facing a Twilight Blade and only hitting on 16+ (I am making up numbers to illustrate my point), I might be wondering if it wouldn't be nice to squeeze out every extra bit of damage I can instead of having 10 through 15 of my crit range wasted on misses.

But I say all these things as a newb, mind you. I may finally get real gear and just crush everything in my path for all I know with this build exactly as is. And if nothing else, your guidance gave me a much much much better build than my own attempts did previously.

Lets see...

Pierce Sternum, my Fighter/Rogue, relying on backstabs... ouch... Abandoned at 26th level.

Void, my ShadowDancer/Wizard... Still active and I actually enjoy him. Currently SD-1 / W-35... But what I wouldn't give to make that SD level a monk instead. Hide in plain sight is useless on this server...

So, I still like your build and feel like I learned a lot in making it. And, it seems that you've learned a lot since then too.

[Rocco_ns3]

I read the thread, and it makes sense to me as to why the tritons are similar.

But I am not sure that the crit range discussions in it take razarr's point into account, which is that AB is also a very important aspect if you are looking at the value of larger crit ranges. Saying that some weapon will crit-hit twice as often is untrue if you are fighting things that need a higher hit number.

If I had some godly AB of 90 or something, there is no doubt in my mind that a 10-20 crit range is the greatest invention ever.

But, I am 37th, and my AB is like 53 or 54. The next time I am facing a Twilight Blade and only hitting on 16+ (I am making up numbers to illustrate my point), I might be wondering if it wouldn't be nice to squeeze out every extra bit of damage I can instead of having 10 through 15 of my crit range wasted on misses.

But I say all these things as a newb, mind you. I may finally get real gear and just crush everything in my path for all I know with this build exactly as is. And if nothing else, your guidance gave me a much much much better build than my own attempts did previously.

Lets see...

Pierce Sternum, my Fighter/Rogue, relying on backstabs... ouch... Abandoned at 26th level.

Void, my ShadowDancer/Wizard... Still active and I actually enjoy him. Currently SD-1 / W-35... But what I wouldn't give to make that SD level a monk instead. Hide in plain sight is useless on this server...

So, I still like your build and feel like I learned a lot in making it. And, it seems that you've learned a lot since then too.

The build is best if you have full NS gear, with a large Ice Shield and a G1 helm. That and the Hyborian shield for blunt damage and your 27 DR and almost nothing stops ya. You are entitled to your opinion about AB, I find the 55 is enough for most areas, in fact, the only one you really need more for is Xi Fu.

As far as not being able to crit if you roll a 16 (from your example) you would not be able to crit with a 16-20 axe either. Not only do you have to hit, you have to be able to back it up by hitting again. Anyway, I have learned two things about tritons, what I have said above and also that you can't change peoples minds, they have to learn for themselves.

Either way, use this build to go and get full NS gear, if you don't use it on him, you can use it on the next guy. Trust me, it makes a defference.

[Gruesome Wolf_ns3]

its good to know about the NS gear... and actually, for all my crappy gear, I actually DO have the Ice Shield and Hyborean shield of all things.

The hyborean has been sitting in my inventory unused since getting the Ice, but now, that seems dumb to me... it has some huge physical immunities I seem to recall...

And I just met Mr. XiFu yesterday for the first time and can give firsthand witness to the fact that he is ummm... somewhat difficult... to hit. (I like understatement)