Question re: crit immune mobs

brash99_ns3 · Post by **brash99_ns3** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:37 pm

If you have a hit that would normally be a crit on a crit-immune mob, does it do zero damage or count like a normal hit? In other words, is it a strong disadavntage to have a WM with kukris vs these, because you then do almost no damage at all?

I presume though on rogues sneak attack vs sneak-immune mobs, you do a normal hit but no extra sneak attack damage?

Sorry for such newb questions

Post by **DM Fire_ns3** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:20 pm

You still do normal damage.

The crit damage is a multiplier of the normal damage.

MadBovine_ns3 · Post by **MadBovine_ns3** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:40 pm

Also Crit immune also grants immunity to sneaks, death attack, yadda yadda

Anonymous_ns3 · Post by **Anonymous_ns3** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:30 am

If you have some Monk levels then you can switch to Kamas when fighting crit-immune creatures. Switch on Flurry of Blows and you have an extra 3 attacks per round which makes up a lot of ground damage-wise.

There should be plenty of room in your build to specialise in Kukris and Kamas, but if you have already built it up then no worries because the attack progression on Kamas is -3 instead of -5 so you'll still be hitting them a lot.

I posted a build on the Midwest forums a little while ago, since it's a solid and fun build and a few people were asking me about it. Judging by your question I am guessing that you are very new to the game, so the post I made was specifically for players such as yourself...

brash99_ns3 · Post by **brash99_ns3** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:05 am

I'll go check it out -- have been messing around with several slight variations in fact, as it is true I am not very good at this

which is ok cause I enjoy playing with newbie toons even if none ever turn out too uber. The kukri WM version is a halfling so kamas would carry an offhand penalty, but I am also toying with an elf fighter-monk-WM with kamas. The extra attacks from the kamas are what interested me, vs the higher crit rate with kukris. I had never consider using both on the same toon --- can a WM have two Weapons of Choice or do you have to select one of them as the primary? I guess your thread will tell me so I'll go look it up ... (edit after reading: it looks like you sometimes bypass Weapon of Choice for WM, do you consider that to be a completely 'elective' choice for a WM? That can be skipped without great penalty?)

The build I end up taking to 40 the most is a non-flashy plain vanilla bard-RDD-fighter, mostly because they end up with a decent if non-impressive 60AB/75AC (85w/imp.Exp) and even better an carry about a gajillion tons worth of loot, heh...

I love packing 19 tons of loot

but keep wanting to try a dex build as well, and WM-monk seems very intriguing. What is the final AB/AC on the first build you had, the WM-monk?

DM Xero_ns3 · Post by **DM Xero_ns3** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:31 am

The kukri WM version is a halfling so kamas would carry an offhand penalty

If you're concerned about the penalty, you can always use a dagger or kukri in your off-hand.

lougha_ns3 · Post by **lougha_ns3** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:36 am

WM's always have to take a Weap of Choice, and you only get one. that will be the weap that all your specific WM feats work for (i.e. superior weap focus, ki damage, increased multiplier, ki crit...). That being said, you can take ultiple regular weap focus feats. So with the build in question, you would take your Weap of choice in Kukri, giving you uber crit threat range and a better multiplier. but you would also take weap focus/epic weap focus (total of +3 AB) in Kama. that way, when a crit immune mob shows up, you can do more damage with the kama, and still have a fair AB (granted, not quite as good as w/ the kukri depending on how many WM lvls you take).

Forge_ns3 · Post by **Forge_ns3** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:54 am

actually, with enough WM levels, you can choose another Weapon of Choice. I think that happens at WM lvl 13 or 15... something like that...

lougha_ns3 · Post by **lougha_ns3** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:08 pm

I have a toon with 28 WM lvls, and I didn't know this.

Is it counted as an option for a bonus epic feat (which would be available at 13 and every 3 after)? Crazy. I looked at the grimoire and it's not listed as an option, but that doesn't mean it's not available...

Acara_ns3 · Post by **Acara_ns3** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:31 pm

you can get another weapon of choice every third level after 10th

brash99_ns3 · Post by **brash99_ns3** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:57 pm

I tried running it thru an offline character builder and it did let me choose a second weapon of choice at 13WM. Interestingly to me, I tried a halfling and if I hold the kama in mainhand and kukri offhand, I still get the 6 attacks per round mainhand with kama, and two offhand with kukri. For some reason I assumed equipping the kukri offhand would squelch the monk's six attacks in main hand... I also want at least 3 monk, for speed and also because I'd like to take at least a token monk level at 21 so as not to wait till 40 for the full monk perks, and at that point one more level of monk for speed seems a minor cost.

But the main problem with a kama/kukri combo is you now have so many feats to take! (focus, improved crit, weapon of choice and maybe epic focus for both = 8 feats, on top of must-haves such as ambidex/2-weapon/improved 2-weapon/toughness/etc let alone the WM prereqs) you'd have to take about 13WM/3Monk/24 fighter or something ... and it might be that's a high cost for being able to swap out weapons depending on the mobs. Plus I would have a devil's own time just remembering which mobs are crit immune, sigh ... I might be better off I think just deciding on either straight kama or kukri. Although it might be interesting to try it out.

Also, what decent pre-epic kamas exist besides Guardsman & Master Li?

DrakhanValane_ns3 · Post by **DrakhanValane_ns3** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:58 pm

Of course, you still have to have Weapon Focus in the weapon to be able to select a second Weapon of Choice. When dual-wielding, I generally don't have too many feats to spare as a WM.

Forge_ns3 · Post by **Forge_ns3** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:19 pm

As usual, DV provides the required insight:

Your toon must have weapon focus in another weapon before it will be offered as a second weapon of choice for your WM levels.

Aaron315_ns3 · Post by **Aaron315_ns3** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:26 am

That is the main problem trying to use different weapons in each hand, its very feat hungry. As you said the simplest way (or possibly most efficient way) of doing it would be to take more ftr lvls instead of WM.

Anonymous_ns3 · Post by **Anonymous_ns3** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:28 am

Ok, here is the build from the other post... I didn't mention the first weapon of choice but it will appear at your first weaponmaster level and you will only have one choice... this is just how I write up my builds so that my gf can play them too so I leave that kind of stuff out... I prefer Human - I think all of the benefits far outweight the gains of taking Halfling or Elf... you can drop the improved expertise if you want to take one of these classes though and take 8 fighter before your weaponmaster levels (but you will be getting multiclass xp penalties)...

Human - Any Lawful - Fighter 10 / Weaponmaster 28 / Monk 2

Str 8
Dex 17 *
Con 14
Wis 14
Int 13
Cha 8

* Raise Dex at level-ups

Discipline 43; Disable Trap 1(cc)**; Intimidate 4(cc);
Lore 41; Open Lock 21(cc); Tumble 40

** (cc) means it will not appear as a class skill, so can be taken at any level. In all other cases do not put points into the skill unless it shows as a class skill (FYI you can saves points for subsequent levels)

Fighter 6 (1-6):
1. Weapon Finesse; Weapon Proficiency: Exotic; Expertise
2. Dodge
3. Mobility
4. Spring Attack
6. Whirlwind Attack; Weapon Focus: Kukri

Weaponmaster 7 (7-13)
9. Blindfight
12. Ambidexterity

Fighter 4 (14-17)
15. Two Weapon Fighting; Improved Two Weapon Fighting
17. Improved Critical: Kukri

Weaponmaster 4 (18-21)
18. Toughness
21. Weapon Focus: Kama

Monk 1 (22):

Weaponmaster 3 (23-36)
24. Epic Weapon Focus: Kukri; Great Dexterity I
27. Weapon of Choice: Kama; Great Dexterity II
30. Epic Weapon Focus: Kama; Great Dexterity III
33. Epic Prowess; Great Dexterity IV
36. Armor Skin; Great Dexterity V

Monk 1 (37):

Weaponmaster 3 (38-40)
39. Improved Expertise
40. Epic Toughness I

As you can see there are plenty of spare feats to make the build fit together. You can drop the last 3 weaponmaster levels and swap for 2 fighter and 1 monk and that will trade 1 AB for your monk speed if that's what you want, and will also allow you a greater selection as your last feat.

Final AB of the above build is 64 with 2 weapons, final AC is around 82, which can be 54 AB and 92 AC with improved expertise when you have a mob on you. You will find that at level 40 you can solo most areas once you have decent gear, and your damage output will be consistantly very high against any enemy.