a pair of ideas

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:04 pm

Yeah, items meant for pure classes and the like would likely need tag based scripting that forces an unequip if a PC has a certain class. The standart toolset class restrictions are easily overcome by 1 level of the ppropriate class.

lordvan52681 · Post by **lordvan52681** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:03 am

Im not sure, but I think Kromix hit the nail on the head. Im pretty sure that if they dont put only useable by such & such and instead put "not usable by" and list everything BUT the desired class, then it will disallow multiclassed ppl to use it. I could be wrong.

Post by **TGPO** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:59 am

All it requires is for you to have one class that it is usable by for you to use it. Not usable by isnt a toolset option, so that would be a custom script and you wouldnt know if you could or couldnt use an item until such time as you tried to equip it.

I dislike putting class restrictins on items in general though. I have always equated it to not being able to use a specific butter knife because its made out of carbon steel instead of stainless steel. Its a freakin butter knife.

lord_modred · Post by **lord_modred** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:45 am

i agree with you in that point in all respects but one, i always liked the idea of the holy avenger. a sword that would only accept someone who devoted their life to the way of the paladin just seemed like a good idea to me.(infact in PnP games i have taken this idea as far as to have the sword burn anyone else who tried to wield it.)

Igor · Post by **Igor** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:34 am

why is it no problem that casting bigby (or some other nasty spell) and incapacitate or kill fighter? but its big unfair to kill mage with devastating critical feat? makes no sense to me.

max crit range is 10-20. You do need to hit on the 10 though. Their is concealment and as much of a save as the powerful spells by good mage. there are crit immune shifter forms, there are palemasters.

maybe remove the spell mantle potions or something to compensate. Although these are stripped easily enough by breach/mords.

just my opinion

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:55 pm

TGPO wrote:I dislike putting class restrictins on items in general though. I have always equated it to not being able to use a specific butter knife because its made out of carbon steel instead of stainless steel. Its a freakin butter knife.

I don't totally agree. I see it as more of a matter of training to use a specific weapon, training that requires a certain amount of dedication to a class rather than trying to be good at everything. And there's metagame considerations, it rewards players who stick with a certain class instead of those who multi just to cherry pick all the best abilities (which is really just another type of metagaming after all). There's a lot of things in pnp gaming that isn't entirely logical, but exist because it makes the game more fun.

Post by **LinuxPup** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:40 pm

While I'm not for brining in dev. crit (its uber cheap), bigby's crushing hand is more powerful in most (not all) cases. I'm surprised they allow it in ns4.

Draco Nightspawn · Post by **Draco Nightspawn** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:43 pm

Overwhelming crit: 21st lvl, great cleave, improved crit, weapon focus, power att, and a str of 23+. With the high str needed other abilities will be low, now dev crit needs a str of 25. IMHO fighter types need something to combat high lvl spellcasters, and not everyone likes to multiclass. Personally I think the spellcasters have it made, cast a BB then a few maxed-out IGM's and bye-bye fighter. Now if a fighter can get in close and land one lucky hit with an overwhelming or dev crit they have a chance.
With all the options open with builds, races and whatnot ( never seen a dwarf paly before, let alone a drow paly lol) I think the fighter types need a break.

Just my 2 bits worth

Post by **LinuxPup** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:48 pm

IMO, devastating critical isn't as powerful against mages as plain old knockdown/improved knockdown. This is of course given that the mage has a low discipline which isn't always the case with many (most) ns4 caster builds.

I like the idea of casters being weak and dying easily when alone, and being an incredible force when combined with a tank... course I like playing in parties where everyone compliments each other's weaknesses, and NS4 is built around the idea of factions where we have allies.

I think builds that have sorc or wiz levels should get a serious discipline penalty of like -20 to -30 or something. And Bigby's crushing hand has not only not been nerfed, but it seems to be more powerful than normal NWN... what's up with that?

Holghask · Post by **Holghask** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:32 pm

What follows is from the mouth of a developer and verified by a DM (ThBestDeception) on Neversummer4 (they have modified the Bigby's spells as follows from the original scripts that come with NWN): Bigby's spells use opposing checks on strength as the code assumes the grapple is automatically started (no AC like in PnP to start the grapple) and seem to use Trip rules from PnP instead of Grapple rules (this is big and here's why: if using grapple, medium size chars get a -0 for their size modifier, small (halfling and gnome) get -4...when using trip, it is -4 per size catagory difference between the two combatants...Hand is large, thus medium size chars get -4 and small get -8...suckage!!!...

A very high Spell Resistance will counter all of these, and Fortitude or Will on the ones that do damage too (to The Best Deception: I'm pretty sure I'm quoting you right on this...):

Bigby 5:
target gets -10 AB

Bigby 6:
Hand (1d20 + 7 (Hand's STR modifier)) vs. target (1d20 + STR modifier + size modifier when compared to large hand (-4 for medium, -8 for small))

Bigby 7:
Hand (1d20 + 10) vs. target (1d20 + STR modifier + size modifier when compared to large hand (-4 for medium, -8 for small))

Bigby 8:
Hand (1d20 + 13) vs. target (1d20 + STR modifier + size modifier when compared to large hand (-4 for medium, -8 for small))

Bigby 9:
Hand (1d20 + 16) vs. target (1d20 + STR modifier + size modifier when compared to large hand (-4 for medium, -8 for small))

so to sum it up:
if you are a medium size char versus the Bigby's level 9 spell (forget it if you are halfling or gnome) you need a +40 strength modifier (STR = 90 ) to avoid a knockdown from it 100% of the time (even when the hand rolls a 20 and you roll a 1)...who on this server has a strength higher than the low-mid 50's? (it's more complex to calculate a specific % avoidance other than 50%, ie STR must = 50 for a +20 STR modifier, but if folks are interested, I'll post a reply)...

Thus, Bigby's has been toned down from NWN but it is still way too powerful...

only way to beat it all the time is have greater spell mantle on you at all times...or in a shape form that is a size much greater than the hand (dragon shape)...or SR>=50 (assuming no greater than 24th level caster with all the spell penetration feats casting the Hand) on you at all times...

Perhaps adding a small bonus for the target to resist a Bigby's Hand by adding their Base Attack in some form? Thus high level toons can resist a bigby's a lot better...

Celorn · Post by **Celorn** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:36 pm

one other thing i'd like to see with bigby is something for poor dex-based toons - since strength can overcome it's grip and have a chance to dismiss it, other mages can mantle, why can't a reflex/DEX dodge happen to avoid the thing in the first place? Just because ""it's magic""?

It's amazing that someone surrounded by glowing lights can shoot a giant glowing hand from a distance and it always hits their target, yet someone trained in the arts of the bow can miss targets POINT BLANK all together!? something just doesn't seem right here...

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:19 pm

Yeah, I'm kinda sad when it comes to bigsbies. My poor little halflings get knocked down EVERY SINGLE TIME by them. Even when I do resist I fall down in the next 5 seconds. So against mages on this server who have spot (cheesed in for most of them) and bigsbies its a spot, spell, slam situation. It would be nice to have a reflex save to dodge the flying arcane hand, when you have 37 on your reflexes you should be able to dodge spammed hands. Make it like a weapon finesse, use dex if dex is higher than strength (I don't know if you can do that or not but hopefully).