since the firs of my series is underway (Minds of Magic) here is the second install ment Blade Brains. this is all about the warrior classes Fighter Barbarian Ranger and others.
the first subject id like to adress is what chance does a pure melee build have aginst mages and the like. the answer is not mutch of one. at low levels mages are realitivly easy to deal with but as the levels increase and there deffensive spells get better then the fighter has a hard time dealing with these finger wigglers. so what options does a fighter have aginst raw magic power? a fiew things come to mind but all in all a fighter can mostly only annoy the said mage untill someone more adept at combating them arrives or whatnot.
Knockdown: this feat is widely used in most servers and for a melee vs mage essental IMO this not only prevents them from casting but gives you +4 to hit with a melee weapon however ranged attacks suffer a -4 due to the targets lessened profile. so keep that in mind when working with a AA build or other ranged allies. knockdown is also made at a -4 attack penalty but being a warrior class -4 isnt that bad after 8 or so levels.
Disarm: now this has mixed reception on the server as most people dont like being disarmed. vs the mage this wont do mutch but if they have certian staffs (staff of the dead) this will knock out one of there spells ( SoD gives +1 level 9 spell slot) while this may not be the best option aginst a mage it certanly annoys them. this too has penaltys to the attacker -6 for the base disarm skill and -4 to IMP Disarm feat
Taunt: not a feat but a handy skill if you have a decent cha and put points into it this give the target a penalty to their AC of up to -6 depending on how well you beat there concentration check. the other effect that is perticulary bad for casters is the 30% spell fail chance of a person taunted . now as most casters will have oodles of concentration id leave this skill to the Bards Paladins and Blackguards as they will have the best Cha and can actualy select the taunt skill ( its not cross classed for them).
another thing to keep in mind is that most of the Melee classes have the worst will saves so investment into Iron will and the like might be usefull if you plan on fighting alot of mages or casters and certian giants with big sticks ( heh).
if you have any VS mage/caster info to add by all means do so
now id like to move on to the various builds of a Melee machiene
do i go dex or str based? what is better? are they equal? do i go pure melee or add a caster or other class to better round my whirling blade of doom?
i personaly find Str build a bit easyer to find str enchancing items not to mention they are more likely to use heavy armor and a shield for better ac than most dex builds (ie ranger dual wield) having a low dex however also hinders your already bad saves giving you 2 quite low saves instead of one low one medium and one high. but the best advice i can give on any and all builds (casters thiefs ect) is to set all your stats to what you can except the one main one this conversly should be rather low since it will catch up with all your 4th level increases some will disagree with this, however having only one stat to put points into will save you having to add one here and two there thus hurting your main stat in the process.
i also want to touch on weapon selection as it is a big part of any melee build. do i get a slashing weapon or maybe blunt or a two handed one do i dual wield or use a shield? this is ofcorse all up to you and your personal prefrence however on this server i find that the rapier is one of the best choices. not only for its 18 to 20 crits but for the fact a good majority of enemys have low piercing immunitys. does this make other weapons obsolete? no just a bit less helpful or more challanging however you look at it. also you can alwase find mobs and enemys that are less protected aginst other damage types.
anyway ive blabbered on for a while so ill let you have a chance to reply and add to this welath of Melee information.
Blade Brains
I have made a couple of usuable Fighter types, mostly Barb but as a ST build they are deffinatly limited. The straight ST build fighter can resist Bigby more often but they still fall flat when it comes to Wail. The build I have had the most success with is the epic Barbarian due to Terrifying Rage. It overcomes the main problem with a ST build and that is not having a decent AC. When everything you are fighting is paralyzed as soon as it gets near you then you don't have to worry about your AC. Otherwise the Fighter/WM/(Rogue, Monk, Bard ect.) seems to work only because of the amount of damage they can deal out in a short amount of time. This build is usually more Dex based because of the requirements for WM. I know someone will mention the Fighter/Cleric builds but once again we know clerics work no matter what you mix them with so I will let somebody else bring up their uber Cleric/ect build. Good luck and happy leveling.
MLoki
MLoki
STR based tanks arent all that bad when done right. I wont hand out the progression I use, or the third class as it changes on what my goal is for the end build. However a STR based Paly/DD even at mid level 18-22 can shake off bigby's half the time once defensive stance is kicked in. The paly saves make up alot as well for making the wail saves.
*Computers are alot like air-conditioners. They work great until you open windows*
This is true, but the real kicker, so far as I can see, is that no matter what your melee build is, even a crappily put together sorc is going to have enough maxed IGMS sitting around to run you outta hp. If they went all caster, chances are they have auto quicken 3, which means even more damage coming your way faster. That's the whole reason the counter cheese dragon builds spwaned in the first place -- decent buffs + eleventy billion HP meant they could at least get to the caster and knock it down before they got too low on health. Throw in some more cheese, and a sorc/pally/SD build will force your melee build to waste points in spot or listen, putting limitations on how much you can focus on the core skills you need to beat the crap outta people, or limiting the initial abilities layout of your char. A pure wisdom monk build will have lovely SR, lots of attacks, and a decent AC, but in NS4, he'll also never be able to hit any endgame character who knows what he/she is doing. Maybe if he went zen archery, but his base AB is still so low as to be somewhat laughable. Buffing makes the world go round, sadly, even for melee builds.
All this said, PvP isn't all there is out there. Melee builds are fun (even when i go caster, i always try to melee stuff -- it's a sickness), and excellent tank classes to party with. If they were with a group that spared em the buffs, they'd also take names in a group PvP situation, both through surprise (you expect a buffed character to be some part caster -- it's a shock when it isn't) and through the evident teamwork.
All this said, PvP isn't all there is out there. Melee builds are fun (even when i go caster, i always try to melee stuff -- it's a sickness), and excellent tank classes to party with. If they were with a group that spared em the buffs, they'd also take names in a group PvP situation, both through surprise (you expect a buffed character to be some part caster -- it's a shock when it isn't) and through the evident teamwork.
i start new character here and warrior is no good. i just ftr. no good ac, i can hit stuff most of the time but everything has slashing resist (and I mean EVERYTHING) and i was so "stupid" to become specialist in sword.
been killing goblins until level 9 but its not so fun when you get so little xps
don't know what to do
been killing goblins until level 9 but its not so fun when you get so little xps
don't know what to do
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P. Fricebottle
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Monks are definitely the epitomy of anti-mage... especially at high levels. A monk with 35+ or so levels with improved SR is almost untouchable by most spells... epic spells bypass SR though.
And not only that, but they get improved KD which is definitely a fear of many casters. And if that wasn't enough, they can run so fast (especially when hasted) that before a caster can even react, they're right in the caster's face.
And not only that, but they get improved KD which is definitely a fear of many casters. And if that wasn't enough, they can run so fast (especially when hasted) that before a caster can even react, they're right in the caster's face.
There is a reason double hasting is against the rules because it makes it so fast that not even magic would make someone move that quick. There are ways of getting halfling monks so fast you literally see only a blurr when it goes through your screen.LinuxPup wrote:Monks are definitely the epitomy of anti-mage... especially at high levels. A monk with 35+ or so levels with improved SR is almost untouchable by most spells... epic spells bypass SR though.
And not only that, but they get improved KD which is definitely a fear of many casters. And if that wasn't enough, they can run so fast (especially when hasted) that before a caster can even react, they're right in the caster's face.
Just my two cents
Jaromaru Shadowbane
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lordvan52681
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Haste exploit only works if you have fewer than the levels of monk required to have monk maximum speed. He was talking about a monk with crazy SR, which would require lots of monk levels.
The real problem with that, though, is the lowered AB you get as a monk with a lot of monk levels. Sure, you've got nice SR, but without a pretty good number of levels in other fighting classes, you're going to have a hard time hitting a decent caster (or knocking em down for that matter, smart casters save skills and drop in a discipline dump near the end, just to make melee mad).
So, yeah, you can be antimage, sorta, with monk, but pure monk is going to get the bejeezus knocked out of him by a) other melee builds b) death magic if he's not beefy c) just plain regular magic damage spamming by casters with lots of spells and lots of autoquicken.
The real problem with that, though, is the lowered AB you get as a monk with a lot of monk levels. Sure, you've got nice SR, but without a pretty good number of levels in other fighting classes, you're going to have a hard time hitting a decent caster (or knocking em down for that matter, smart casters save skills and drop in a discipline dump near the end, just to make melee mad).
So, yeah, you can be antimage, sorta, with monk, but pure monk is going to get the bejeezus knocked out of him by a) other melee builds b) death magic if he's not beefy c) just plain regular magic damage spamming by casters with lots of spells and lots of autoquicken.
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lordvan52681
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I used to play on Aventia a few years ago, where AB was very important... but its not as important on NS3 & 4. By going pure monk you'll lose 5 ab compared to high ab classes, and if you put 4 ftr levels in before level 20 you lose only 4 ab, but with 6 base attacks per round, and with only a 3 ab difference between each attack, instead of 5 ab with other classes. A high level monk will be able to hit most casters.
Oh, and of course monks become immune to poison, disease, and mind affecting spells, and have the best base saves of all classes.
I once had a pure lvl 40 sorc (no paladin levels), and I couldn't get a single spell to penetrate a pure lvl 40 monk who had taken improved SR 5 times.
The caster's best bet is to use acid sheath, but even then, most monks are dex based which means they can always bring out a bow. I'm not quite sure, but I think they've nerfed acid sheath on NS4.
Oh, and of course monks become immune to poison, disease, and mind affecting spells, and have the best base saves of all classes.
I once had a pure lvl 40 sorc (no paladin levels), and I couldn't get a single spell to penetrate a pure lvl 40 monk who had taken improved SR 5 times.
The caster's best bet is to use acid sheath, but even then, most monks are dex based which means they can always bring out a bow. I'm not quite sure, but I think they've nerfed acid sheath on NS4.
Actually, for a fighter build on NS3.5 AB is THE MOST important! since all the level23 weapons have sooooo much damage, and the enemies have SO much AC and DR, to be able to kill any of the bosses on ns3.5, you HAVE to have a sustained 62 AB at a minimum, and a few bosses like Poxx have so much regen that you need even more than that, or get really lucky with crits, REALLLY lucky.
On ns4, thankfully weapons aren't loaded with 9 types of damage, but for that reason, characters that can add Darkfire, divine might and divine power/favour to their weapons have a HUGE edge -- Clerics (and to a MUCH lesser extent, Paladins).
Hands-down, a strength+wisdom based cleric, one-on-one can take out ANY other build, and can easily take on a mob of around 5 without breaking a sweat. Without even considering domains, with the immunity buffs, stat buffs, ac, ab and damage buffs, that clerics get, they can deal out the most damage of any other meelee class out there -- note that BARD with a good song+war cry and Ranger with Bane of enemies can deal a lot as well, but not the un-blockable MAGIC/DIVINE damage, and rogue/assassin/BG can deal some nice sneak attacks - but they have to be able to actually LAND the sneak attacks to be effective.
I have seen other low-magic PWs that have widened-out the progression of spells like divine favour, just to try and help the other classes compete. The cleric's main downfall is that they have to rest/rebuff a lot, and that slows them down and makes them vulnerable - same thing if they are dispelled during a battle, then they can really be in trouble. Secondarily, clerics HAVE to cross-class to get a decent amount of disc., tumble, listen/spot and 4 attacks, which weakens their casting ability.
I have made a few melee builds on NS4 that do pretty well (ie: can solo all of amazons), but none of them rely on many (or any) levels from the TRUE warrior/full-ab classes, because you NEED some magic in your build to be an effective fighter (you can get away with some UMD to use scrolls/wands/staffs BUT that gets expensive, and wastes your time constantly releveling a crafter toon).
I am still working (offline) on a few more build ideas for ns4 that I will be building as soon as I have time to...
On ns4, thankfully weapons aren't loaded with 9 types of damage, but for that reason, characters that can add Darkfire, divine might and divine power/favour to their weapons have a HUGE edge -- Clerics (and to a MUCH lesser extent, Paladins).
Hands-down, a strength+wisdom based cleric, one-on-one can take out ANY other build, and can easily take on a mob of around 5 without breaking a sweat. Without even considering domains, with the immunity buffs, stat buffs, ac, ab and damage buffs, that clerics get, they can deal out the most damage of any other meelee class out there -- note that BARD with a good song+war cry and Ranger with Bane of enemies can deal a lot as well, but not the un-blockable MAGIC/DIVINE damage, and rogue/assassin/BG can deal some nice sneak attacks - but they have to be able to actually LAND the sneak attacks to be effective.
I have seen other low-magic PWs that have widened-out the progression of spells like divine favour, just to try and help the other classes compete. The cleric's main downfall is that they have to rest/rebuff a lot, and that slows them down and makes them vulnerable - same thing if they are dispelled during a battle, then they can really be in trouble. Secondarily, clerics HAVE to cross-class to get a decent amount of disc., tumble, listen/spot and 4 attacks, which weakens their casting ability.
I have made a few melee builds on NS4 that do pretty well (ie: can solo all of amazons), but none of them rely on many (or any) levels from the TRUE warrior/full-ab classes, because you NEED some magic in your build to be an effective fighter (you can get away with some UMD to use scrolls/wands/staffs BUT that gets expensive, and wastes your time constantly releveling a crafter toon).
I am still working (offline) on a few more build ideas for ns4 that I will be building as soon as I have time to...
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Aarkon Draco
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if we could stick to discussing figters rangers and barbarians id appreciate it. clerics monks and the like will have there own thread.
ok of these three melee classes i find that only the ranger and the Barbarian are the ones who its actualy worth while to build into epic levels. Rangers ofcrose get favored enemys and eventualy Bane of enemys (+2 to hit and +2d6 dmage to any favored enemy) but you must have 20 levels of ranger to get it.
Barbarians get several things if taken to epic levels Greater rage is recieved at level 16 giving you +6 str and con instead of +4 penaltys remain the same . starting at 11th level they get damage reduction 1 point at 11th 2 at 14th 3 at 17th and 4 at 20th now this may not seem like mutch but every bit helps. barbarians also get a nice selection of epic feats like Thundering rage Terrifying rage( quite popular and effective) and Mighty rage. all of this makes it worth taking into epic levels
the Fighter on the other hand seems to be more of a "as needed" class true you get a bonus feat every 2 levels and Fighters are the only ones who can specalise but there is no real need to take one to epic levels. with say 5 levels of fighter taken at the right times you can have 4 attacks a round with any other class ( 4 levels Ftr are needed before 20th level to do this)
wep speaclisation with one or 2 weapons or Imp specalisation with one weapon. its all just a matter of when you take the levels to get your desired feat.
ok lets switch gears a bit and talk about some warrior class PRCs
First and foremost is the Weapon Master these beings are master of there chosen weapon with a bonus x1 mutiplyer to the crit of the weapon and a extra +2 to the threat range this makes the WM one of the best choices for a Melee class build PRC. so what weapon is best for a WM? well it depends on your personal style realy. ive seen everything from the kurki to the scythe used and in melee they are all effective. the only weapons that i find less desirable for your WM focus would be the ones with 20 x2 crits light flail ect. the WM skill will improve thses weapons substantualy but with at 7 levels of WM having only a 16 to 20 x3 crit just doesent seem worth it when compaired to say a longsword having 13 to 20 x3 crit or a rapier having 10 to 20 x3 crit or a warhammer while the range may be low 16 to 20 the mutiplyer of x4 makes it worth while (above numbers are for a 7th level WM with a keen weapon and having the Imp crit feat for the weapon)
The Dwarven Deffender the best door stop around ..
to be a DD you must be a Dwarf no biggie there Dwarves mage great Warriors, dwarves also make good clerics and mages but there true calling is a Fighter. The DD class adds to there already hard to kill nature by giving them a sort of battle rage simmilar to the barbarian with some noteable exceptions. the biggest being they cant move from that spot while in the Deffensive stance. moving cancels the bonuses and ends the stance. using helaing kits potons or activating items also ends the stance. Knockdown however can be done in the stance without ending it. i havent tried yet but i believe disarm too can be used ( if you know more about this please post it) while the Str bonus isnt as good as the Barbar rage with only +2 the con gets a +4 and our ac also get +4 instead of the barbars -2
and you get +2 to all saves this can be performed once per day with a progression of adding 1xday every 2 levels after first ( simmilar to thief backstab levels 1 3 5 7 ect the Deffensive Stance lasts as long as your in combat and dont do anything that ends it. also starting at level 1 you get Deffensive Awareness at level 1 your dex bonus to your ac remains even if flatfooted. at level 6 you can no longer be flanked ( if i get the meaning behind this it means a rouge cant backstab you by flanking you tho a hidden rouge can still hit you with a BS) and at level 10 you get +1 save vs traps ( what this has to do with being a wall i dont know) at level5 the DD gets a 3 dr this latter increases to a dr of 6 at level 10 and another +3 dr is added every 4 levels past 10th
ok well thats all for now ill touch on other PRCs and more tatcis latter and please keep posts in this thread to the warrior classes
ok of these three melee classes i find that only the ranger and the Barbarian are the ones who its actualy worth while to build into epic levels. Rangers ofcrose get favored enemys and eventualy Bane of enemys (+2 to hit and +2d6 dmage to any favored enemy) but you must have 20 levels of ranger to get it.
Barbarians get several things if taken to epic levels Greater rage is recieved at level 16 giving you +6 str and con instead of +4 penaltys remain the same . starting at 11th level they get damage reduction 1 point at 11th 2 at 14th 3 at 17th and 4 at 20th now this may not seem like mutch but every bit helps. barbarians also get a nice selection of epic feats like Thundering rage Terrifying rage( quite popular and effective) and Mighty rage. all of this makes it worth taking into epic levels
the Fighter on the other hand seems to be more of a "as needed" class true you get a bonus feat every 2 levels and Fighters are the only ones who can specalise but there is no real need to take one to epic levels. with say 5 levels of fighter taken at the right times you can have 4 attacks a round with any other class ( 4 levels Ftr are needed before 20th level to do this)
wep speaclisation with one or 2 weapons or Imp specalisation with one weapon. its all just a matter of when you take the levels to get your desired feat.
ok lets switch gears a bit and talk about some warrior class PRCs
First and foremost is the Weapon Master these beings are master of there chosen weapon with a bonus x1 mutiplyer to the crit of the weapon and a extra +2 to the threat range this makes the WM one of the best choices for a Melee class build PRC. so what weapon is best for a WM? well it depends on your personal style realy. ive seen everything from the kurki to the scythe used and in melee they are all effective. the only weapons that i find less desirable for your WM focus would be the ones with 20 x2 crits light flail ect. the WM skill will improve thses weapons substantualy but with at 7 levels of WM having only a 16 to 20 x3 crit just doesent seem worth it when compaired to say a longsword having 13 to 20 x3 crit or a rapier having 10 to 20 x3 crit or a warhammer while the range may be low 16 to 20 the mutiplyer of x4 makes it worth while (above numbers are for a 7th level WM with a keen weapon and having the Imp crit feat for the weapon)
The Dwarven Deffender the best door stop around ..
to be a DD you must be a Dwarf no biggie there Dwarves mage great Warriors, dwarves also make good clerics and mages but there true calling is a Fighter. The DD class adds to there already hard to kill nature by giving them a sort of battle rage simmilar to the barbarian with some noteable exceptions. the biggest being they cant move from that spot while in the Deffensive stance. moving cancels the bonuses and ends the stance. using helaing kits potons or activating items also ends the stance. Knockdown however can be done in the stance without ending it. i havent tried yet but i believe disarm too can be used ( if you know more about this please post it) while the Str bonus isnt as good as the Barbar rage with only +2 the con gets a +4 and our ac also get +4 instead of the barbars -2
and you get +2 to all saves this can be performed once per day with a progression of adding 1xday every 2 levels after first ( simmilar to thief backstab levels 1 3 5 7 ect the Deffensive Stance lasts as long as your in combat and dont do anything that ends it. also starting at level 1 you get Deffensive Awareness at level 1 your dex bonus to your ac remains even if flatfooted. at level 6 you can no longer be flanked ( if i get the meaning behind this it means a rouge cant backstab you by flanking you tho a hidden rouge can still hit you with a BS) and at level 10 you get +1 save vs traps ( what this has to do with being a wall i dont know) at level5 the DD gets a 3 dr this latter increases to a dr of 6 at level 10 and another +3 dr is added every 4 levels past 10th
ok well thats all for now ill touch on other PRCs and more tatcis latter and please keep posts in this thread to the warrior classes
I have a spectacular build in NS 3.5, who is a dex-based cleric. His base wisdom was 19 (at lvl 40), just so he could cast all the level spells. 38 lvls of cleric, 1 paladin, and 1 monk (for the tumble). Focus is in rapier and has a holy avenger (the dispell in a HA weapon is based on character level, not paladin level in normal NWN).
Extended divine power lasts so long that I usually only needed to cast it twice a day. With 38 levels of cleric, the buffs are almost impossible remove... even a mord. disjunction is very unlikely to remove a single buff (however since NWN 1.66 the +20 limit on mord. has been removed and is now based on full caster level). And with a SR of 50 I'm immune to most caster's spells. Also, I took domains Trickery and Strength (strength for divine power at lvl 3, so that I cast extended divine power at lvl 4 instead of normal). I also took silent spell feat so I could cast harm at 2 spell lvls instead of just one.
Speaking of which, silence can be a great way to own a caster... if you cast silence (only bards and clerics can cast it) on yourself, all creatures become silent without even a will save.... even HOSTILE ones.
You become silenced too of course (unless u resist your spell with your uber SR), so be careful. So one way to own an unsuspecting mage is to walk up to the caster, silence them, and watch them freak out. Also, being silenced gives you 100% sonic damage immunity.
Now some of this build doesn't transfer so well to NS4... harm isn't so great for example, but spell resistence, darkfire, heal, divine favor, improv invis., haste, divine power, and rez is great. Nothing is better against undead than a cleric.
My cleric, [ Darkfalz ], is a zen archer, and I highly recommend that also, as its the only type of build in which one ability (wisdom) will improve ab, ac (with a monk lvl), and spellcasting... very efficient and powerful. So my archer can cast lvl 9 spells with a high DC, and yet has a higher ab than most of the melee characters in my party. But this of course is not a "blade" build like the topic suggests. Also, you could of course make a druid zen archer, but I would suspect this wouldn't be as powerful, because you'd be missing cool spells like improv invis., divine power, and and such.
Extended divine power lasts so long that I usually only needed to cast it twice a day. With 38 levels of cleric, the buffs are almost impossible remove... even a mord. disjunction is very unlikely to remove a single buff (however since NWN 1.66 the +20 limit on mord. has been removed and is now based on full caster level). And with a SR of 50 I'm immune to most caster's spells. Also, I took domains Trickery and Strength (strength for divine power at lvl 3, so that I cast extended divine power at lvl 4 instead of normal). I also took silent spell feat so I could cast harm at 2 spell lvls instead of just one.
Speaking of which, silence can be a great way to own a caster... if you cast silence (only bards and clerics can cast it) on yourself, all creatures become silent without even a will save.... even HOSTILE ones.
You become silenced too of course (unless u resist your spell with your uber SR), so be careful. So one way to own an unsuspecting mage is to walk up to the caster, silence them, and watch them freak out. Also, being silenced gives you 100% sonic damage immunity.Now some of this build doesn't transfer so well to NS4... harm isn't so great for example, but spell resistence, darkfire, heal, divine favor, improv invis., haste, divine power, and rez is great. Nothing is better against undead than a cleric.
My cleric, [ Darkfalz ], is a zen archer, and I highly recommend that also, as its the only type of build in which one ability (wisdom) will improve ab, ac (with a monk lvl), and spellcasting... very efficient and powerful. So my archer can cast lvl 9 spells with a high DC, and yet has a higher ab than most of the melee characters in my party. But this of course is not a "blade" build like the topic suggests. Also, you could of course make a druid zen archer, but I would suspect this wouldn't be as powerful, because you'd be missing cool spells like improv invis., divine power, and and such.