shibby on the power building

[Death Dealer1]

i got to thinking of something...why not just make the xp scale for non preffered classes to a race more in line like the rules. instead of giving them the xp bonus at their lvl(just take this out), if someone takes a class that is not prefered it cuts the xp gained by like 5% or something. if they multiclass further then it becomes like 10-20%. this hit would take effect when the lvls of the classes exceed more than 5 lvls or so..this would really make it mean on those triple class chars that just want the uberness of a build, would also make someone wait until the very last thing until taking that....lets say pally lvl for the sorc instead of early on for good saves always.

[Go'f]

also, what if some of the class unique abilities could be moved to a higher level if it is not your first class, or the shortest route

meaning could have a pure class with standard rules but if you multiclass it you have to invest more, maybe L2 or L5 (just a random number for now really).

tha abilities that seem to cause a fus...
easy code using level 5 as the example

if charactor level > (minimum entry level+3) and unique ability class <5 then
disable the ability
else make it work

Monk Wisdom bonus - unique
Paladin/Blackguard Charisma Bonus - Unique (in that you cannot ever be both)
Shadow Dancer HiPS - Unique (any one know the lowest level you can make it to this class,

Seems its not really a question of how to disable them but is it a good idea to restrict people from playing a class combination they want that should be the discussion... freedom of action

also seems to me the only time this does any harm is during a PK when someone can mess you up... so should classes be restricted or PK behaviour.... I know there are rules already and they seem to be being followed..... up to the edge, the players that are causing the problem for others are pushing the rules of charactor creation and harasment, again it becomes do you want to be more heavily restricted on how you can interact because the people pushing the rules of creation and interaction are always going to find the edge and hang out there.

anyway thats my ramblings on the subject, please please dont make it any harder to level up my Drow I will put up with other people being how do we say... adventurous with the rules

[Celorn]

tha abilities that seem to cause a fus...
easy code using level 5 as the example

if charactor level > (minimum entry level+3) and unique ability class <5 then
disable the ability
else make it work

Monk Wisdom bonus - unique
Paladin/Blackguard Charisma Bonus - Unique (in that you cannot ever be both)
Shadow Dancer HiPS - Unique (any one know the lowest level you can make it to this class,

SD: depends on what you're combining it with, if you start with a class that has tumble/hide/ms as class-skills, then you can get SD at 8th lvl, if you have to cross-class, then not till 18!

and I don't see a problem with multiclassing a few sd, monk or bg/paly levels in... all my decent builds so far have at least one of those! If it was restricted, then I would be most likely playing on another server.

Seems its not really a question of how to disable them but is it a good idea to restrict people from playing a class combination they want that should be the discussion... freedom of action

also seems to me the only time this does any harm is during a PK when someone can mess you up... so should classes be restricted or PK behaviour.... I know there are rules already and they seem to be being followed..... up to the edge, the players that are causing the problem for others are pushing the rules of charactor creation and harasment, again it becomes do you want to be more heavily restricted on how you can interact because the people pushing the rules of creation and interaction are always going to find the edge and hang out there.

Well, I think the restrictions should be GOD-induced penalties, if the behaviour is beyond the limits/rules. Otherwise as guilds get stronger, the players will be able to handle it just fine! - that's half the reason I joined the Brethren, so I could help out people who are being harassed by higher level bullies, and thus, keep NS4's numbers strong and everyone happy.

anyway thats my ramblings on the subject, please please dont make it any harder to level up my Drow I will put up with other people being how do we say... adventurous with the rules

I'm all for 'if you can do it, then do it' as long as it's not harrassment.

And I'm building a drow now! I've gone up 17 lvls in 2 days only party-attacked twice so far, both times by players with DOUBLE the level(s) of us... lol. Boy will they regret it when my drow hits lvl30..and even more if i can get it to 33 or so, quite a sweet spot with the build I'm doing.

[Epistaxis]

Or they can change it to work like the shifter. The shifter can only use the epic shapeshifting feats if he is pure druid/shifter.

You could do the same with the shadow dancer and only allow pure rogue/SD to be able to use HIPS

[Go'f]

Or they can change it to work like the shifter. The shifter can only use the epic shapeshifting feats if he is pure druid/shifter.

You could do the same with the shadow dancer and only allow pure rogue/SD to be able to use HIPS

simple solution, now the only question is do the devs want to stop those builds of spell casting SD's that are sniping people

[P. Fricebottle]

I wouldn't mind SD being only attainable through rogue, because its really doesn't make any sense when a paladin or wizard are shadowdancers. Also, if you make it to where the shadowdancers must be about level 5 then no rogue would go shadowdancer because past level 1 they already have attained those skills (not like the shadow summon or shadow conceal is worth the levels anyway).

[MLoki]

I still think if the SD as a SL only prestige class solves a lot of the problems with these power builds. Paladins are not allowed in SL and neither are druids. You still have the Arcane casters HiPSing but they at least get limited to one faction and eventually we may even see some Assassin builds if that class gets unrestricted. The other thought is to make alignment matter which kills the Paladin power building pkers at least.

MLoki

[Elagneros]

I'm not in support of the idea of limiting sd to a single class or faction. The thing is sds around here are played as stealth killers, while that's not the real focus of the class at all. Rogue isn't the only class for which sd makes sense, you've got bards, monks, and even rangers for whom the class is a good fit. The real problem is the cheesy HiPSing mages, perhaps a limitation on epic spells for HiPS casters like the limitation that was put on Dragon Shape is in order. Non-mage HiPSers aren't invincible, in fact they can be rather easily beaten with the right classes.

I also think the paladin/sorc combo is a worse one than almost anything that uses a level of sd for HiPS. Especially when the player took the level of Paladin for the good charisma saves, but then goes around killing everything in sight.

[P. Fricebottle]

Okay ranger SDs make sense because they hide among the trees and such, but bards are singing a lot and I doubt that makes sense when it goes unnoticed by hostile creatures if hes HIPSing. As for monks, monks are lawful. I'm not sure if lawful people think it lawful to attack someone from behind, hide when it gets too dangerous, and run away just to come back to stab the person when they're not looking.

[lordvan52681]

Why not? Heck the guy on US Marshalls hid in a chicken suit for pete's sake lol!

Seriously though, Hipsing isnt that bad when it's combined with a nonmagical class like rogue or monk, but when mages use it, its too powerful. Bad enough that they have invisible spells, but to be able to disappear without casting a spell gives them too much advantage.

[Yonwe]

Okay ranger SDs make sense because they hide among the trees and such, but bards are singing a lot and I doubt that makes sense when it goes unnoticed by hostile creatures if hes HIPSing. As for monks, monks are lawful. I'm not sure if lawful people think it lawful to attack someone from behind, hide when it gets too dangerous, and run away just to come back to stab the person when they're not looking.

Oooo! My PnP side comes rushing to the surface!

Bardsong is called "Bardsong" out of a need for a convenient name to encompass all of those various abilities Bards get as time goes along. While singing is definitely the most common, and most profitable, form, the abilities are keyed to level and total ranks in Perform. And Perform, aside from singing, can be anything as esoteric as humming, dancing, acrobatics, or even ventriloquy... a Bard jumping around and throwing is voice would be conducive to sneaking in any form. Not to mention that epic PnP Bards eventually get the ability to ignore making noise while using their abilities, which actually gives them a bonus to Hide/Move Silently... such is PnP!

And as for Lawful Monks, I could write a book about the alignments and what law/chaos/good/evil really is in D&D; Kiyal can tell you, as someone who played for years in my PnP campaigns, that it's definitely what we talk about the most when we put the dice away after a game.

To put it bluntly without a long diatribe the likes of those sessions, being Lawful for a Monk is living his life within the bounds of a moral or ethical code that guides his actions whenever possible. For instance, being very "Lawful" for a Monk might mean getting up at 6am every day, doing 100 pushups, praying for a hour, running two miles, eating breakfast, training for three hours, etc, etc, and then doing that every day without fail... or perhaps, it means killing every chaotic person the come across as a matter of belief in the cause of order... or perhaps, it means being in the object service of a lord or feudal authority like a Samurai, doing the bidding of his master without contrary thought.

Ultimately, it just means having a code of behavior that guides actions without thinking about those actions and taking a unique path at the time. This is why Lawful Neutral, the epitomy of Lawfulness, is called the "Judge"; if X happens, do Y; if G happens, do F. Otherwise, do A, B, and C. It doesn't really mean they need to be honorable or nice, or good or evil... it just means they are very, very focused and consistent. Those Chaotic people just do whatever they feel like

[Elagneros]

Oooo! My PnP side comes rushing to the surface!

Bardsong is called "Bardsong" out of a need for a convenient name to encompass all of those various abilities Bards get as time goes along. While singing is definitely the most common, and most profitable, form, the abilities are keyed to level and total ranks in Perform. And Perform, aside from singing, can be anything as esoteric as humming, dancing, acrobatics, or even ventriloquy... a Bard jumping around and throwing is voice would be conducive to sneaking in any form. Not to mention that epic PnP Bards eventually get the ability to ignore making noise while using their abilities, which actually gives them a bonus to Hide/Move Silently... such is PnP!

Or to put it more succinctly:

Requirements

To qualify to become a shadowdancer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Skills
Move Silently 8 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks.

It's called shadowDANCER for a reason. Also note that in pnp, Perforn is not a bard-only skill.