new changes

[TheBestDeception]

Bigbys x 2, HORRID WILTING, Greater Ruin, Hellball, Prismatic Spray (nice and random), Incendiary Cloud ... and I can assume meteor will be fixed at some point.

I highlight Horrid, as it is a commonly overlooked spell that does massive, non-reflex dmg. It is not, however, uber cheese that Isaacs used to be.

Elganeros: summons are good if you focus in them. period. Don't believe me, I will log on and have my summon kill any mage, 1 on 1.

You people simply do not understand ... I have seen a mage tank 2 maximized dragonshapes without using the old IGMS ... mages are still way too overpowered.

[deathdearler1]

i use horrid alot since my mage is a necro specialist. i sacrificed divination school(premonition, tru see) for the dc on necro spells. wail, horrid, create greater undead <-----still really sucks even with necro mage, neg energy burst. what your failing to hear us on is if a mage has a summon from lvl 9 and it is an elder elemental why does it have 20ac? the rest of the stats are still pretty ok for the lvl but at the summons lvl 20 it shouldn't have 20ac. a pack of 3-4 bandits took out a summon creature 6 in 3 rounds. 3 ROUNDS!!!! this thing is a lvl 14 bear and a lvl 6 bandit wailed him to death. thats joking. bring me a lvl 14 cleric unbuffed and a lvl 6 anything couldn't kill it in 3 rounds. that is the point i'm making with summons. not that you didn't rework them to be more special with the proper focuses its that at lvl 17 when you bust out that summon it shouldn't be because some goblins are after you. the summon should be able to atleast have a sporting chance. another thing i see is my ? about having familiars and companions while they are getting "fixed" got grazed over. i really miss my familiar.........gave me somebody to talk to when no one is on.

[TheBestDeception]

i sacrificed divination school(premonition, tru see) for the dc on necro spells. wail, horrid, create greater undead

Perhaps this is a good time to point out that taking a certain school with a Wizard does not increase their DC, but instead gives them an extra sell slot for each spell level.

I concede to the point about the familiars. They can be helpful to early level mages, and have been disabled for the longest time. Unfortunately, I cannot say what's going on with them, as compared to other aspects of the mod, they are quite trivial.

Summon creature spells, as I have said many times before, are for the most part well constructed. For example, I watched a Summon I chicken (LVL 2) tank a ghoul Ravager. You simply must put effort in to summons to get results, quite contrary to stock NWN.

[deathdearler1]

i hope you see that i get a little frustrated with this stuff not cuz i want my uber munchkin super spell caster. its cuz i really like this mod and want all the builds to be good. i think melee would really be helped against mages if the gear was a little more geared sometimes for fighting mages. i think mages could have a few limitations here and there to keep them in check cuz they are by far the most powerful bare bones chars around. i just don't want to see 50 druid dragons running around just because everything else suffers with a fix here and there. in fact, i really hate epic dragon shape not being a "shifter" only kind of feat like the other shapes. i don't really think that not focusing specifically for summons should hurt you that much with summons. can ya dig me here? this mod has a long line to live up to. i want it to be the best non uber mod around. i like non uber.

[Ryddwillow]

I play my cheeseball mage to see what new changes are in effect. WoW I think I should be a peasant farmer w/ a crooked stick and battling uber field rats. What the hell is going on here? Been gone for a week and a half and things change like that. I like changes for the good but what I witnessed it doesn't look like cheeseballs have a chance here at all. I think I should build an uber druid/monk/sd and go from there. No summons, pretty much all spells in thier spellbook --nerfed. Why? I read the forum messages--but i like 1st hand accounts and man o man, my mage is gone. HORRID WILTING--what? I tried it to a melee char, ok 100 damage. That is too a melee char now let's go to char that has a great save--half if that. What is next for nerfing so we dont waste our time in lvling chars if they are going to get nerfed all the time. This game is based upon D&D and it seems pretty much we should be battling npc's w/ sticks w/ all the nerfing going on.
THIS IS CONSTRUCTIVE CRITISCISM.

[TheBestDeception]

2 problems with the above rant:

1) Upper level planar summons are in no need of change ... they are fine. Why is it so hard to understand this? It seems it makes a popular argument to claim summons suck, simply because you can't use them right ... but in reality they have better stats than most melee chars of the same lvl.

2) A mage who uses horrid alone can beat a dragonshape. End of story. If you don't believe me, ask Redzan. Why are you both afraid of dragonshapes running around everywhere, knowing this truth? It doesn't make any sense...

[Nemesis Revised]

TBD: isaacs is a midlevel spell. but using it at empowered and maximized level should be putting it at par with spell levels 8 and 9.

At maximized isaacs, 7 damage to a mob of goblins was a bit faltering. So it was better to use horrid wilting (and it's a spell level less of maximized isaacs).

True, higher level spells should be used for better damage, but that shouldn't make lower spell levels that do more damage at empowered and maximized levels weak as compared to non-empowered or maximized spells at their same level (such as horrid).

So, which is better? Empowered Isaacs or Horrid Wilting? It should be both the same, more or less. Of course, their differences should account for a bit of tweaking, but nevertheless the nerfing shouldn't be too great at all.

Currently, i suggest changing the damage concept of isaacs. At the core of its essence, issacs is really a DnD spell meant for firing a mass barrage of missiles. Apparently here, the more the mobs, the more missiles (but the more spreadt the damage is). I agree, that the unnerfed isaacs was a a bit overpowered. But, the nerfed isaacs now seems to be an extremely radical shift from the old one.

I humbly think that nerfing isn't what's needed, but really more of balancing.

btw, i noticed a funny shift of character classes when the mage spells were nerfed. Ppl suddenly wanted to try other classes to take advantage of them. Of course, the concept of nerfing here should be focused on spell balance, not on driving players to try out other classes. [/i]

[Nemesis Revised]

i think the summons are okay in terms of their attributes. So i agree with TBD saying that the summons are sufficient and effective when used wisely. On the other hand, what I believe to be what's wrong here isn't the summon attributes. Rather, it's the summon AI.

Although summons are well equipped with their attributes, player's feel bad when they're summons aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. Getting stuck at the corner of hallways for example are more like annoyances for the player since the player has to keep a constant eye on the minimap for where his summon is and has to keep issuing the "follow me" command.

Thus, some players tend to think that summons should be beefed a bit more just to compensate for their faults.

At the core, i believe a teeny bit more tweaking on attributes can be done, but nevertheless shouldn't have too big an impact on the summons. What will have a big impact on the summons is if their AI was reworked (though, i don't know if this is possible).

But i did read that AI's response to darkness was tweaked (on some forum post). So i guess, the summon AI can be tweaked too? here's some of what i can think of:
- following the summoner
- effective use of spells (so that a summoned baalor wouldn't cast harm on undead, he can differentiate? hehe)


Correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks

[Flailer]

Not much time to respond, but I would like to just remind folks that the spells as they are now are in no way complete. Some spells don't even do anything atm. If you have suggestions on how spells should be implemented differently than the Bio version, perhaps post them in the ideas/suggestions forum.

What hopefully will happen is that there's a wide array of spells that will be useful, different spells for different occasions. Some useful for single monster attacks, but not for groups and vice versa.

We're working on it...don't give up on the casters yet.

[AggieDan]

One question about summons, though...

Not that many people will be using this particular one, but it bears noting if it applies to similar summons.

I've got a blackguard that has his undead summon. The summon is a nice little zombie that has a weapon focus in longsword. Could we not summon up a sword for him as well? That or change his weapon focus to unarmed strike.

[lordshelt]

I really have only ever had 2 complaints about summons myself....1st is I completely agree with that getting stuck at a corner thing, I hate that i have to keep a constant watch on my summons to make sure he can turn a corner in a dungeon. 2nd some summons (mostly slaad) i've noticed cast like 4 defensive spells and by the time they are ready to actually start fighting, it's almost time for them to unsummon. But, on the whole I think summons are ok the way the are.

[deathdearler1]

so if there are 50 uber dragon shape druids running around on the server.......what class is everyone gonna be?

[Lework]

Bigbys x 2, HORRID WILTING, Greater Ruin, Hellball, Prismatic Spray (nice and random), Incendiary Cloud ... and I can assume meteor will be fixed at some point.

I highlight Horrid, as it is a commonly overlooked spell that does massive, non-reflex dmg. It is not, however, uber cheese that Isaacs used to be.

Elganeros: summons are good if you focus in them. period. Don't believe me, I will log on and have my summon kill any mage, 1 on 1.

You people simply do not understand ... I have seen a mage tank 2 maximized dragonshapes without using the old IGMS ... mages are still way too overpowered.

1-2 opponents isnt the problem. When my mage goes up against 5+ foes it does no damage. Not all of us took horrids since IGMS's were so effective. And theres nowhere for me to relevel and take horrids, as i would of done if i knew this change was coming. pretty much screwed over my 40. meh

[trent]

maybe if you ask real nice like a dm might redo 1 lvl for ya .... maybe lol

[Kromix]

or give u a lil nice nudge to lvl 1 lmao!!!