Help for and from a newbie around...

Nurvus · Post by **Nurvus** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:28 pm

I'm new here...
Haven't even started a character... (busy reading the server entrance info

)

The server seems promissing, but there are a few things I'd like to straighten up:

1 - What item merging rules are there on shifter/druid alternate shapes; and what rules are there on spell based alternate shapes (Polymorph Self and Shapechange) because those shapes are very weak and not only druids/rangers/animal clerics have some or all of those 2 spells, as the wizard/sorcerer has the worst BAB... (I like to try riginal builds now and then, opposed to the traditional spell slinger OR weapon wielding melee mage)

2 - I've read, in a locked thread, about minimum levels for paladin/monk classes... and other easily exploitable (uber classs, in a way)
I wonder if it wouldn't be better to give some high end benefits to classes of full level (40)...? Even a 35 sorcerer/5 paladin will have great benefits, comparing to a pure sorcerer... why not instead give a 40 sorcerer a few ones too? why not give each class bonuses every 20 levels in that class? or every 10?

Fighters are a GREAT base in every melee build (with 4 levels in it, I can get Epic Weapon Specialization and my BAB will not suffer at all, nor my HP either...; Monks give great bonuses to Kama/unarmed fighters (yet you can make kamas naturally slightly weaker than other weapons, in your server); Paladins get great boost to their saves with their level 1 bonuses, yet they give out good melee spells for anyone and good immunity feats at higher levels...
There are great domains and useless domains (by comparison)

My overall opinion is: Do not restrict/nerf the strong, but strengthen/improve the weak...

3 - Do bonuses in subraces count towards the 12 magical attribute boost cap?

....more coming

Nurvus · Post by **Nurvus** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:43 pm

About Hide in Plain Sight abuse:

I am too the kind of guy who'd take 1 level of shadowdancer and 39 of rogue... or 38 rogue/1assassin/1shadowdancer.. or monk instead of assassin

Yet, those who complaint too much about the rogues know this:

True Seeing, Palemasters, and any character that instead of always going for Discipline/Tumble/Spellcrafting skills instead tries and puts effort into Spot and Listen, and also boosts constitution instead of always strength/dex... while choosing good overall alertness gear, will always have a good edge against them shadowdancers (= repeating rogues)...

Shadowdancers give rogue that "useful more than once" ability... (the hide in plain sight useage could bear a penalty to hide/move silently, through the use of a few checks and a non-removable misc item on the character (once you sneak attack, successful or no, going stealthy again in the next 10 rounds would apply a penalty of -10 to Hide/Move Silently skills and to Initiative checks when attacking while stealthy) because it is true that people usually boost dex (steath modifier) much more than wisdom (movement detection modifier)

So try to fix an alternative to nerfing/restricting builds... it always makes everyone happier if you instead give the opposing builds a chance to beat the uber builds...

Nurvus · Post by **Nurvus** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:51 pm

In short... make HIPS users actually need those Skill Focus/Epic Skill Focus(Hide/Move Silently)/Stealthy to beat a max Listener/Spotter and lose some Initiative when engaging in those repetitive sessions of sneak attacks... by granting them a few penalties like I posted before this...

Nurvus · Post by **Nurvus** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:07 pm

Palemaster idea:
make Palemasters grant actual caster levels to their base caster class (wizard/sorcerer/bard), instead of just spells per day, starting at level 11 and every odd level thereafter (max total caster level resulting in 20 at best) to make it worth it for those pure palemasters...

Nurvus · Post by **Nurvus** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:11 pm

Perhaps granting double skill points at epic class levels, would be a nice alternative to restricting classes... allowing also everyone to get useful skills, even if cross class, like Spot, Search, Listen, meager Hide and Stealth, etc... and some (I bet) underused skills like Taunt...

Nurvus · Post by **Nurvus** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:21 pm

I think you should revise some subrace attribute bonuses, specially if you are intenting to make them affect feat choices and such, because some seem to turn some classes into uber ones, seeming to me that you are not as balancing a server as you talk about in the forums... (Aasimar paladins/clerics/good druids?, come on...)

You are making everyone choose about the same subrace for the same builds... wich is kinda the opposite of what you say t want in your threads... (variety and freedom of choice...)

Some subraces just smell too much cookie-cutter to me, that's all... though it is a very cool thing you've made

Nurvus · Post by **Nurvus** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:43 pm

Tenser's Transformation

Does it still have the stupid shapeshifting effect?
I believe it should be removed (the shapeshifting effect)
It is not too strong, at least for a wizard/sorcerer...

Nurvus · Post by **Nurvus** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:47 pm

Throwing weapons

Something worth thinking...
Can it be made so you can restock throwing items at blacksmiths? Through conversation, adding back quantity to the item... given you had at least one of them (duplicate/forge duplicates)
Maybe even through Weapon Crafting conversation

Arashi · Post by **Arashi** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:08 am

1) default shifting stuff...multiple AC types all turn into deflection...only the highest counts...gloves dont merge...weapons dont count in unarmed shapes.

2) the minimum level thing has never been implemented...

3) subrace bonuses are given through an invisible item on the character...therefore they do not count towards or against feats or skill points...but do count towards the max 12 from magic

4) HiPS...due to the limited items in NS4 it is far easier for a character to end up with exceptionally high spot/listen than to end up with exceptionally high hide/move silently. Most of the people that complain about HiPS abuse are those who dont bother spending skill points in spot.

5) I beleive the pale masters spellcasting abilities are coded into the engine...I could be wrong but I think BioWare would have to be the ones to change that.

6) # of feats...see #5, I think thats built into the engine.

7) the subraces are straight out of D&D...not likely to be changed.

Tensers is a shapeshifting spell...yes it has the shapeshifting effect...and short of completely re-writing the spell it wont change.

9) could probably be done...there are no unique throwing weapons as of yet...so pretty un-needed until that changes as you can buy them all anyways.

10) Its taken them well over 6 months just to implement 1 or 2 minor changes in the game...I wouldnt get my hope up on any ideas or suggestions to be implemented in our lifetimes.

11) Are you simply breaking up all your ideas into multiple posts to up your post count? Really unnecessary otherwise.

Arashi

Nurvus · Post by **Nurvus** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:22 am

Actually most of my posting were taking into account the your point 2) had been implemented... sorry about that, though the palemaster idea would be cool, 'cause it isn't that demilich they can summon that is giong to make them compete, even by far, with a wizard or a dwarven defender... (or mostly anything, actually...)

As for the lots of posts, I really posted as I got things into my mind... not to up the post count

as I have no interest in that... and I didn't want to leave one big, huge actually, post quite boring to read, as I am used to people not caring to read big posts fully and replying without all the "facts" in mind

Thanks alot for your reply...

By the way, I am, at lieast a little, that "munchkin" powerplayer who likes to make those uber builds... but i make them all from my head, instead of copying "that build I hear is soo strong" that everyone uses...
So I do like and apreciate any effort in making more meager builds uber.... and not more uber builds meager

Arashi · Post by **Arashi** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:03 pm

Before you get too far into the game make sure you read the faction/class limitations...not every faction is allowed every class...and you are limited to 1 prestige class per character...while not overly restricting...it does make certain class combinations impossible.

Cant make a druid/shifter/monk...The Circle faction wont allow you to have monk levels... Cant make a rogue/assassin/shadowdancer...1 prestige class limit.

Certain prestige classes can only be taken if you are part of a specific faction...only Ancient Ones can become red dragon disciples, etc.

Also bear in mind that NS4 is a low magic server...you wont be finding any +10 weapons or armors, no permahaste items, no items with every immunity imaginable...items also have level limits...no level 1 characters running around with the best gear in the game.

Overall I really like NS4, I just wish they would put a little more effort into updating it...Ive basically stopped playing here...and I am currently playing on 2 different servers...both of which get almost daily updates.

Arashi

Nurvus · Post by **Nurvus** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:34 pm

I do not expect, ever, to find perma-haste items in servers, as it is a good reason for me to leave

Also, I believe immunities, even to knockdown (as 1.65 patch has removed the "large or bigger sized shape + Improved knockdown = True Strike" bug...

) should be really unexistant... (there are builds focusing in improved Stunning Fist, and giving immunity to mind-affecting effects or critical hit immunity is basically unacceptable...)

And finally... I believe that not even merging just gloves on unarmed shapes make those with good weapons plus Flame Weapon/Greater Magic Weapon/Darkfire/Blade Thirst/Holy Sword and Keen Edge, quite advantaged, in my opinion... (arguable, however)

Also, if you add the fact that there cannot be any Shifter/Druid/Monk in the server, and that druids cannot get any other proficiencies... there are costs in getting those good weapons...

Nurvus · Post by **Nurvus** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:03 pm

Also, everywhere I play, Polymorph Self and Shapechange spells are quite useless... even more so the better are the items in the server...
One of the obvious reasons is the fact that a wizard/sorcerer has the worst BAB... getting less attack and attacks per round, and not being able to use True Strike either, while shapeshifted...
Another is that Druids also have the spell, and that it is a spel, prone to interruptions/spellfailure, etc... and occupies spell slots/expends 1 spell from the spells per day avaliable for those levels...
The cause of this uselessness is the fact that nothing merges (not even armor/shield/helm) causing such characters to lose any damage resistance/immunity/several offensive and defensive bonuses they had until shapshifting...

Those spells are limited in duration and offer little more than increased battle stats, useful only for those that focus solely in spellcasting stats...

Rangers - have Polymorph Self and fighter BAB, yet they do usually focus in battle attributes and armed combat techniques...
Druids - have Polymorph Self and Shapechange, good BAB, and they can also, starting at level 16, transform into Elementals with various and none inefective usefullness (wich also become stronger than any Shapechange form at level 20, I believe)
Clerics (Animal) - Polymorph Self, but at the expense of one other possible domain... and as all bonuses to AC from items change into Deflection, Magic Vestment usefullness is cut in half...; Greater magic Weapon and Darkfire are made pointless to use, and short duration spells like Divine Favour, become harder to replenish, as you would need to Shapeshift back and forth to use them..., good BAB and possibility to get Fighter BAB for a short duration...
Sorcerers/Wizards - Worst BAB, less offensive beefing spells, and most of them, and the best too, are short in duration (spellmantles and such go down quickly and you can't replenish while shapeshifted)

In the end, damage gloves shouldn't be only useable by monks, but the best of them should; and gloves/armor/shield/helm should merge with every single alternate shape (and the rest apply as normal... so that shifters remain always the ultimate shapeshifting class)

TTG · Post by **TTG** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:56 pm

Palemaster Idea - Would require hakpak

Double Skill Points Idea - hakpak again

Subraces - Taken directly from the DnD books and stuff. At first it might seem like the +2 or so to stats would be a huge help, but as you play, you'll find very few subraces as the ECL is just too brutal for most people to worry about the extra points they could get in some other way.

Tenser's Transformation - Uses the same effect as shifting, just like all shapeshifting spells.

Throwing Weapons - You can buy them in stores, but I wouldn't be surprised to see an artifact throwing weapon that doesn't run out.

All shapeshifting forms take all items possible, shifters are the ultimate since they get better forms and they get more forms.

Post by **Lokey** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:55 pm

Tenser's transform gets hurt more by the save bug than anything else. Need to redo where/when characters are saved. I went with Transformation per the 3.0 SRD by the way: fighter attack base, 2d4 to dex and str, can't cast spells, 4 nat ac--just that the buffs go poof at the first character save.

Polyself and shapechange need work, aye. Had been waiting forever on 1.64, then 1.65 to rip out the Bio stuff and redo. Can't give an ETA though--probably other stuff to balance first...polymorph abilities are stronger than in PnP too (limit of 15 hitdie--ancient dragons !?!) but don't have the "other" uses they do in PnP.

PMs spell-level is handled through spell script, there is a quick change that could be made...just that PM is only way in the game to get crit immune (barring polymorph spells/abils). There's other balancing to do before working on the PM. (Someone check on how good/sucky the PM's summons are against other necro-summon abilities.)