Elimination of Cheese Builds

[turtlehermit]

We all know what they are. When somebody takes one lvl of a class to get the 1st lvl bonuses and the dumping of stored up skill points.

I have read many different theories on this topic. I believe there is a very simple way to eliminate these kinds of tricks and tactics. A thread I read suggested that one must take 5 lvls continuously in a new class when they decide to multiclass. To me this is kinda stupid considering many times i like to lvl up alternating between classes on occasion.

The total lvls a character can accumulate are 40. How about making it so that any class you take must have 5 lvls in it minimum by lvl 40. In effect a 35/5 or a 30/5/5 to reach 40 lvls. You can take those lvls anywhere anytime you choose as long as that when you each 40 you have at least 5 lvl's in each class you chose to take.

IE...At lvl 32 you have a 28/3/1 Fighter/Pali/Monk. You have 8 lvls left to accumulate and you must take 2 more pali and 4 more monk on your way to 40th lvl. It should be scripted or such that you cannot lvl in any other class if you cannot execute the 5 lvl per class rule by 40th lvl.

I understand that to many of us there would be no problem with figuring into the equation of building a character in that if you take one lvl of a class you must finish with 5 lvls in that class by lvl 40. Its simple and effective in my honest opinion. It is also fair in that you do not have to take 5 lvls in a row as I read in the other threads.

Thoughts please, constructive criticism would be welcome. Anybody think that my proposal is sound and solid? Cool...Peace Out!

[iceburn]

You still get the Cheese! They still make the cheese build that is powerful at lower levels becouse of the level one feats.... doing it that way still takes pretty much no comitment to the class. I think that by having to take 5 levels of a class it forces the creator to think more about the choice i.e. "is it worth takeing 5 monk levels to get the wis AC but loose AB"... your way you could still take the one monk at lower levels and wait to take the rest when it no longer effects your AB.. This is just one example of why I think you should have to take all five in a row.

[Zhorn]

Or just remove those classes from the game.

I mean who really wants to play a pure Monk or a Paladin????

Seriously!

No I am not being a smartass. (Is smartass a rude word? Much as I find the red moderator text in my posts amusing I'd rather not waste their time editing my posts).

Remove the Shadowdancer class too while you're at it, its broken as all hell.

Now personally I am leveling up a wizard at the moment who is going to take one level of monk and one level of shadowdancer and use this to brutualise any melee chars who don't have true-seeing. But I digress.

Alternatively DM's can easily script in stuff that stops people putting in more than 5 points per skill per level up. I've played on worlds that do that, and it tends to stop skill point banking. DM's can also craft special gear that requires < X > levels of a classs to use, thus encouraging players to take more than just one level.

Or code it so that you can only change classes every 5 or 10 levels. Yes some people will cry about wanting to alternate levels but you can't keep everyone happy all the time! Also make adding any new classes impossbile after level 30 to catch out anyone trying to be "sneaky" at the last minute!

[turtlehermit]

Cool...I know the "I am gunna sneak this one lvl here for the bonus" will still be used but by making that person then commit 4 future lvls to that class will make him decide when and where to take them. Right now there are no epic lvl areas but in the future where there are areas for those 35th lvl characters those forced lvls may come back to haunt them. Knowing this "may" make you decide against that one lvl pali/sd/monk/thief in knowing you really do not want to waste 1/10th of your lvls on a class that you only want to use for 1/40th of it for. Once again I understand at lower lvls that one class lvl in monk is great but later on when epic areas are included you have to seriously think if it is worth it.

I do it too. I admit to being cheesy, hell someimes I like crackers and wine with it too. This just migh a simple compromise.

Thanks though for the heads up on that.

PS Who ever plays anything pure anymore? Let alone paladins and monks.

[Lokey]

Alternatively DM's can easily script in stuff that stops people putting in more than 5 points per skill per level up. I've played on worlds that do that, and it tends to stop skill point banking. DM's can also craft special gear that requires < X > levels of a classs to use, thus encouraging players to take more than just one level.

Where have you seen it and how well did it work? I've thought about it, but it's a LOT of work for something that won't have too many annoying side effects...plus a ton of data to track.

[DrakhanValane]

PS Who ever plays anything pure anymore? Let alone paladins and monks.

I do! I do! Bards, Fighters, Monks... yum yum.

[Denort]

We all know what they are. When somebody takes one lvl of a class to get the 1st lvl bonuses and the dumping of stored up skill points.

Already discussed quite extensively here.

http://www.nsrealm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1113

Enforced restrictions are A Bad Thing in my opinion. What is needed is serious encouragement to play the single classes and to play a more even spread of multiple classes. Add some "single class only" items and add some "minimum class level" items.
Do you think a fighter would still take a couple of levels of rogue if there was fighter only plate that gave a couple of extra strength and constitution points on top of the other top range armour bonuses? Or maybe boots with +8 dodge ac among other things?
While such items would be much better than the existing crop of items, being a single class (and a single mundane class at that) would be one heck of a trade off.

Faction limitations already greatly restrict what you can and can not do. Let people play their happy happy 38/1/1 sorceror/paladin/monks but make them wish later on that they were single class so they could use the Shiny Dedicated Sorceror Staff of Forced Intrusion.

[Throst54]

AYE AYE

as was promised way the hell back in NS3... that in NS4 there would be an extensively long quest for pure class characters that would endow them w/ "the best gear" that multiclassers would not have any such acesss to.

[Zhorn]

Alternatively DM's can easily script in stuff that stops people putting in more than 5 points per skill per level up

Where have you seen it and how well did it work? I've thought about it, but it's a LOT of work for something that won't have too many annoying side effects...plus a ton of data to track.

It was done on a HCR world I normally play on called Melnibone (ausnwn2.dyndns.org).
The builder (Sir Elric) is a pretty helpful guy so if you dropped him an email on leehogg at hotmail.com. Or head over to the forum at http://nwndownunder.net/viewforum.php?f=24, sign up and send him a PM.

Just tell him "It'll help stop Zhorn's powerbuilds" and he'll jump at the chance /WINK. He's also coded some nice stuff to stop people switching armor/necklaces/belts/boots/etc in combat. As well as some annoying code that makes you have < X > levels in a class before you can equip class-specific gear.

As to how effective it was, it was pretty damn effective. There was a minor bug in that it somehow factored in peoples stat bonuses when working out how many points they were allowed to add.

As for having to track huge amounts of stuff, don't you only need to track their skill before and after level up? That's just a guess. I haven't done any NWN coding (programming for a living takes the joy out of doing it in my spare time /ROFL).

[Lokey]

Thought about skill dumping a little more (and how much I hate it, lol) and talked to Sir Elric as well. Think there's something somewhat easy that can be done to curb saving points across levels.

[Denort]

Thought about skill dumping a little more (and how much I hate it, lol) and talked to Sir Elric as well. Think there's something somewhat easy that can be done to curb saving points across levels.

The question is, will it make it more fun and encourage class diversity? Or will something like monks become the new popular melee class, being the only ones with both discipline and tumble.

If knockdown could only be invoked once a round and if bigyby's had to make it through AC and concealment (like every other attack that results in a discipline check) then maybe high level casters would not be dumping spare points in discipline.
If tumble AC only worked while wearing light and medium armour then maybe high level melee would not be dumping points into tumble. (Didnt tumble only work in light and medium armour when the xpack first came out?)
Clerics with no discipline would really need trickery since concealment would be their only defense against knockdown and disarm.
Rangers are a melee class with no direct access to discipline. Multi classing is the only way for them to get it. Can you honestly imagine playing a mundane* melee class without discipline?
Discipline is pretty much useless if you are unable to keep it reasonably close to the attack roll of the characters hitting you with checks.

Think very carefully before making any radical changes to the foundations on which NWN is built. NWN is not PnP, you can not expect PnP rules to work in a real time action game.

* Access to Aid and Bladethirst does not count.

[Lokey]

Here's what I'm thinking now (besides nuking Bio munchkinized trip at some point also)...

The problem isn't taking a class to pump a skill per se...it's saving 80 points across levels and taking disc to 43, and tumble to 40 on one level up. Rangers don't get discipline? Maybe it's time for a rule change hak at that...there's other annoying things that could be done more smoothly by fixing the data files on both server and client (though tumble and HiPS will always be hideously broken).

[Dracovin]

I don't see why people hate skill dumping so much. It makes for so many more possible character creations. Think about how many combinations will be taken away by removing skill dumping or restricting levels, etc. The problem with this is that you will also have a lot more of those people who use and abuse Disarm and Knockdown or they will find something else.

I also don't really find HIPS to be as godly as everything thinks. I've killed my share of HIPS guys and the one I did build, I didn't really find to be that powerful.

The great thing about the current system is that there is some much diversity. I love to make a build and then get schooled by somebody or some monster. I then try to figure out how I can improve on that build. The great thing about allowing this skill dumping is that it forces you to also consider whether to sacrafice other ability scores to take intelligence.

Like Denort says, it's not always that easy to protect yourself from such high attack ratings. Even with 8 more AC, on most builds I find it difficult to get a high enough AC to avoid attacks from players. You can get a lot of characters' attacks 50+. Most AC's won't reach that by 40th level (assuming there isn't +10 gear in epic areas), which means guaranteed knockdown or disarm every time.

Dracovin

[Zhorn]

I guess it all depends on how much "realism" you want.

Of course even using the word "realism" in a fantasy game context is something I find a bit strange at times but maybe thats just me. Some people like stuff to make sense.

Having people who overnight becomes a grand-master of Tumble, Discipline or UMD doesn't really seem right. I guess they *could* have just spent their last 39 levels getting psyched up for it /LOL.

However, my little 13th level wizard has 60-odd skill points banked so far and you can bet your boots I'll be grinning when he takes a monk level at 21th or so, pumps a bunch of skills sky-high and takes epic skill focus Discipline.

Then again, if he can survive long enough to get Epic Warding and buy some decent robes then maybe thats a waste of a level!

[turtlehermit]

Nice... Lets see uh umuh. Ok Making it so tht you have to take 5 total lvls in a class once taken you can still dump points into that first attained lvl when you take the new class knowing that down the line you are committed to taking 4 more lvls of that class on the way to 40 total.

Like I said I do skill point saving too. I just think that there should be some kinda restraint on it. Just an opinion.

To me, beeing able to take one lvl and receiving the same benefits as a character that took 20 of that lvl just doesnt sound right to me, especially when it is class specific skills. If you allow dumping...add a hindarance like mandatory number of total lvls. A trade off if you may.

E-A-G-L-E-S GO EAGLES!!!