cleric restrictions

[Downfall]

I still think doing spells by diety faction will just make all clerics from each faction the exact same... Which takes the interest out of the game.

FURTHER - Character Creation occurs BEFORE faction choice... What if you choose a domain and then choose the wrong faction? You are left with no spells...

i have to agree with will power here

[sep caldessian]

I still think doing spells by diety faction will just make all clerics from each faction the exact same... Which takes the interest out of the game.

FURTHER - Character Creation occurs BEFORE faction choice... What if you choose a domain and then choose the wrong faction? You are left with no spells...

i have to agree with will power here

i disagree.

a. if you choose the wrong domains for your faction, then youll be rolling up a new character, nothing too difficult there.

b. the only way all clerics will be the same is if the players make them that way. on a powergaming, powerbuilding server like this, youll have that, along with builds centered around what items are in the PW.

c. a fully buffed cleric is one to be concerned with, however, Mord's Disjunction makes him oh so more manageable.

[ATI]

nah...the more and more clerics get limited the more and more there is really only one kind of cleric build to make.

Destroyin the options of clerics just makes the field of options for clerics smalller. Its simple logic.

However, think about it...how many dex clerics are there? I think I'm the only zen archer cleric that is epic (and even with him I use melee weapons because ranged weapons aren't so smooth).

The one thing at this point that makes clerics unique is their domains. This option was a development choice by Bioware to allow clerics to be a jack of all trades (not really excelling at anyone point). Which is what has already occurred in NS4.

Think about it,....clerics might have higher AB, but toe to toe with a fighter, the cleric should lose from knockdown poundage from a fighter hybrid char.

Clerics can do some nasty work magically, but toe to toe with a caster, and the clerics can't handle bigby's hands, which makes them vunerables to IGMS, which means death ahoy.

Clerics can't do mord's disjunct which is extremely important, and they lose out on the most important death spells.

Also clerics can't do ranged attack as well as a rogue or a ranger (lack of spot makes hitting HiPS ers a little hard)

So really clerics only unique ability is raising the dead to full health. They are a jack of all trades that if you pick hard enough they have some serious flaws. The free domain access is the only thing that helps to build against the flaws in clerics. However, free domain access is also what makes clerics so random. I think we should just leave the domains as the are.

[Spura]

You ppl happily forget the fact that normal melee has neither HipS or Mord!

ATI has made some absolutely ridiculous statements. Like KD is hard on clerics. It isn't. You see all those cleric 16/fighter 4 out there? They have just as much disc as full fighter. Cleric 16 WM x rogue x seems popular now. And that is just insane.
How will a fighter kill a cleric with knockdown???
Cleric has 10 more AB (higher chance of KD) so he has higher chance of knocking down enemy and because he has +5 AC armor shield and deflection and concealment, he has higher chance of not getting hit by fighter's KD.

About HipS, every other non elf ranger melee has a problem with it as well. Even more so than clerics, since they don't get wisdom bonus to spot and listen and +20 to spot from TS.

ATI said they have some serious flaws. He said HipS and lack of Mord. But all he flaws are present in all other melee as well+vulnerability to mages(lack of SR and death ward, and low will saves). Every time I fight someone with those SR rings around him, I know I am gonna lose. Simply cos of battletide and divine favor.

What I would ask devs to do is make these things stack less.
1. Divine power
2. divine favor
3. aid, prayer, battle tide

These groups shouldn't stack with each other. +15 AB +8 damage from buffs is just insane.

[kgb]

Please help me to understand what the acronyms that are being bandied about mean

HipS and IGMS for starters thanks.


This would help so the less initiated amongst us can follow the discussion. Sorry if it offends some.

[Bob]

HiPS = Hide in Plain Sight, 1st level shadowdancer feat.

IGMS = Isaac's Greater Missle Storm, the 6th level mage spell.

[ATI]

Nah I don't think thats unfair, I think the devs should just make items that are easy to exploit more and more of the cleric problems in this game.

You're right smart clerics do a lot to hedge their bets, but knockdown, from what i've been seeing is working on most chars out there regardless of class. Why not make a fighter that has rogue and shadow dancer? HiPs and kill cleric (sneak attack damage bypasses armor because its a sneak attack and they are caught flat footed). Im agree with you that hardcore fighters don't have a chance against a cleric, which is why the non casters should be beefed up (going to the gym) by the developers. Hiting the casters with the nerf bat just makes the rest of the game unfun and less intruiging.

Make more powerful items for fighter classes (with unique code so you need a specific number of fighter lvls to use the items) (by fighter classes i mean non casters) and also better items for pure classes that aren't non-casters. Also...fighters have a problem because of their genuine lack of magic items available in the game (there are items that give aid, bless, and so forth but they don't last very long). There should be Spell mantle items (lvl 20+ req) or SR items for everyone, things that epicly add to spot, AC and everything else. My guess is this all gets covered in the epic planes area. The hard part will be getting you're pure class fighter to epic areas.

Best thing in my opinion is to make better non-caster items to fill out the void from casters obvious advantages vs. non-casters disads (and provide some defensive spells that the fighters have access too, lvl 20 chars should have some serious magic power behind them, even if the char can't cast magic).

[sep caldessian]

clerics have poor reflex saves. get a couple of rogues together, lay out an assload of traps, get a scroll of MD from a wizzy (if possible), and lure the cleric over your traps, especially blobs of acid or sonic/stun traps. MD scroll, then sneak attacks galore. result: dead cleric.

get a bard in on the action. he can cast silence on himself, and get into melee with the cleric, thus preventing the cleric from casting. MD scroll if you have one, Dominate Monster/person, Taunt, curse song, and then go to town.

get a mage in on the action. unless they have changed, the bigby line has no save. MD again to get rid of all those pesky buffs, maximized VT or enervation, and the ever-successful IGMS.

get a paladin in on the action with his holy avenger to dispell buffs. taunt, knockdown, enjoy.

get a monk in on the action with spell resistance, IKD, mega attacks per round, and when things get hairy, monk speed out of there, perhaps into your friendly rogue's traps.

fighter/barb/ranger is going to just rely on sheer power and HP to overcome the cleric. best when partied with the above classes and tactics.

remember: a dispelled cleric is just a bard in fullplate!

[sep caldessian]

clerics have poor reflex saves. get a couple of rogues together, lay out an assload of traps, get a scroll of MD from a wizzy (if possible), and lure the cleric over your traps, especially blobs of acid or sonic/stun traps. MD scroll, then sneak attacks galore. result: dead cleric.

get a bard in on the action. he can cast silence on himself, and get into melee with the cleric, thus preventing the cleric from casting. MD scroll if you have one, Dominate Monster/person, Taunt, curse song, and then go to town.

get a mage in on the action. unless they have changed, the bigby line has no save. MD again to get rid of all those pesky buffs, maximized VT or enervation, and the ever-successful IGMS.

get a paladin in on the action with his holy avenger to dispell buffs. taunt, knockdown, enjoy.

get a monk in on the action with spell resistance, IKD, mega attacks per round, and when things get hairy, monk speed out of there, perhaps into your friendly rogue's traps.

fighter/barb/ranger is going to just rely on sheer power and HP to overcome the cleric. best when partied with the above classes and tactics.

remember: a dispelled cleric is just a bard in fullplate!

oh and i forgot the classic AA called shot and run tactic.

[dond]

actually, clerics have a much easier time detect stealth users than most other classes. (druids beat them out though)

high wis + true sight helps alot. can get around 30ish in that skill without even putting 1 point in them, then you multi with class x and can detect them rather easily.

they also have some nice AoE spells to handle rogues. Implosion and storm of vengeance works well (dunno if they've been changed now though)

[sep caldessian]

actually, clerics have a much easier time detect stealth users than most other classes. (druids beat them out though)

high wis + true sight helps alot. can get around 30ish in that skill without even putting 1 point in them, then you multi with class x and can detect them rather easily.

they also have some nice AoE spells to handle rogues. Implosion and storm of vengeance works well (dunno if they've been changed now though)

right, thats why i left stealth tactics out of my post.

[Spura]

best way to counter TS is making ranger or something with camoflage for +10 hide and one with the land gives +4 I believe.

Most of those suggestions for exploting their weaknesses don't work.
It is hard to kill anything with traps.
Silence doesn't work if they come prebuffed and you have to have more caster level than cleric so silence outlasts their buffs. Also when under silence they can spell resist it(happens all the time) and they will often KD and kill the bard and thus silence before they run out of buff. I don't know why devs made silence vulnerable to SR. It sucks now.

In melee PvP cleric's vulnerabilities never come to play. The extreme cleric AB + KD just own everything.

remember: a dispelled cleric is just a bard in fullplate!

I happen to play a bard in full plate. And the suggested "better items for fighters" solution would leave me high and dry. Btw there is a difference. Bards in full plate can't cast and clerics can.

Oh about mord. Amount of mages with mord ain't exactly high. 1v1 mage will get KDed and killed, at least before lvl 40. And tactics vs clerics that say mage mord and then some melee kills him are automatically 2 vs 1.

[ATI]

actually....HiPS kills clerics all the time...in fact me all the time. Also...Bigbys works almost all the time against me. As do many things.

Seems to me people just like to hate on clerics and other casters cause its easier for them to lvl....well once again, no more nerfing the clerics, why not buff up the fighters? I think its safe to say the items on NS4 are far from complete, and they don't have much consideration with regard to specific classes or anything like that.

Items and feats are what make non casters better (as for bards..i got no clue how to help them...i con't like to sing). The chars have plenty of feats and so forth, but the items just need some work.

Another thing I think that would equalize the playing field, would be special DM items that chars get for doing really good or dastardly deeds. So an ultra rare item that could give a char spell mantle could be given by a DM so as to entice RPing in teh server, and help a char out significantly in battles.

These kind of DM unique items would make chars unique, better, and really strive to work under their DM's goals (would be awesome sauce um).

[Spura]

ATI, saying, hey clerics have a weakness is not much of a case when those weaknesses apply to everybody. HipS, IGMS, bigby, shadow web, everybody has a problem with those. They are not cleric specific weaknesses. And when dealing with those cleric has better chance than other classes with their SR and vs hips with high wisdom mod+spot. Of course they may still kill you. But those SDs probably have epic skill focus in hide and MS so I am not surprised.

[Kaz]

I have a few different suggestions which I'm sure will be hated. but here they go...

From what I've seen, it's generaly agreeded upon that clerics are overpowered in the NWN system. Nerfs on spells can be put in to place, (I dislike spell nerfs), or a focus on their alignment and diety can be taken into effect. http://www.nwncityofarabel.com/coa3deites.htm Has a very good chart on dieties. In their server, they force an alignment of only 1 off from the diety, and the players must choose Domains that match up with the diety. This also offers a bit more roleplaying in the diety area, if people should choose to do it. The other thing they do is have certain spells adjust alignments. Example: Animate dead automaticly shifts the alignment of the caster 3 points towards evil if they arn't already evil. The downside of this system is that a cleric can fall from grace with their god, and a system has to be added in which they can return to their god, or profess their faith to another god (need DM help for that).

Someone else mentioned that Clerics should primarily be used with parties, yet parties seem to be hard to come by. My suggestion would be to put restricitons on resting... (thats the one I'm going to get yelled at for...) Hear me out though; the primary thing that makes clerics and even spellcasters very powerful is that they are able to slect their primary kill spells, use them, and then rest immediatly after the threat is killed. If people are forced to conserve their spells, they must choose when to cast their spells, and more importantly, they will have to take party members along to ease the spell casting requirements. There are several major downsides to this. The first one being, resting areas could become a prime place for PvP, means would have to be thought up and implimented to avoid this. (I have several ideas, but want to see how the initial sleep requirements go over before typing all of it.) The second, would be that other classes such as warriors will level easier, and quicker. It may even be advantagious for a warrior to avoid a party, since he then recieves more xp per kill. (Might add more synergy bonus or something like that.) The last problem, and one of the bigger problems, is that you would need to find a party member. Certain areas such as Gargoth have a low population, and finding party members could be very hard.

The pros to this system: Rogues would actually have people who wanted to party with them! (Ever tried starting out with a rogue? It's very hard to level.) Clerics would be more inclined to party with other people, and buff them, rather then get that extra offensive spell. Spell casters in general suddenly require more thought, and a certain extent of strategy must be used. In general, it becomes more worthwhile to party, leading to more player interaction for reasons other then PKing. It could also decrease the amount of PKing, as it takes more thought to hit a party with 3-4 members. (Or more planning and a few people with you.)

Overall, it would be a drastic shift to the server, I think it would be a welcome shift, but I'm sure plenty of mages are going to start screaming at me. So scream away, let's here what the thoughts are about this.