Denort wrote:Does anyone else get tired of the old cleric stereotypes?
I for one was pleasantly suprised when I found a cleric in NWN could use any weapon they wanted. Blunt weapons always seemed a strange restriction seeing as caving in a skull with blunt steel would make an enemy just as dead as running them through with sharp steel.
BTW this goes back to priests who went on the first and second crusades, where it was forbidden for priests, even those who carried weapons into battle, to draw blood - hence the blunt weapons. Though a mace could probably produce quite an abundance of blood and gore if swung with the proper amount of force.
Any change to the top of the food chain class out of the box is a nerf, of course (putting in a map pin is a nerf too, lol).
The hard part about designing anything for this game are:
NWN limitations:
We don't hak, so any changes we do make have to go off the default GUI. Possibly workable though it's going to be rough with Shifters, sigh.
Many players are used to NWN defaults or have no experience with any changes to the default NWN abilities.
No matter how much we work on it, the comp is still going to be the worst type of DM: the total rules lawyer (Sir Sean may have an ameliorating argument here). Note that our DMs are capable of doing anything, but they can't be around for everyone 24/7.
DnD expectations (it's a long discussion why the DnD system is limited for making a compelling game for a wide audience, Rule 0 doesn't help us a lot there, see point 3 above)
That said, what does it mean that we want to nerf clerics?
It depends a lot on what we want to do overall design-wise as well. An important part of any drama in DnD is resource management (I know it sounds boring). Do I burn this spell to save us now, or will I need it later? This comes from limited options to refresh reusable abilities (resting), which is annoying to do in a PW...it's a lot of waiting out the clock as done in many modules, which is a poor option. Seperate discussion.
The biggest problem with NWN cleric is I'm lawful good, Tyr is my deity, yet I throw as much Harm, Destruction and Implosion around as I want. Custom design of every cleric spell effect for given align/deity/domain is too much to ask for even with our tricksome ways of making the computer do the work, I think. Additionally, cleric spell casting has numerous differences from PnP which make the class more powerful and working with the spellbook is resource and code intensive (only way to do it is brute force).
We've discussed a number of things, but none of them have made it past that stage, so the floor is open. Current ideas based on how much longer I'm awake at this ungodly hour (most around spells/abilities):
Deity "Favor" and spell use Implement a system of deity favor in some fashion (don't kill too much of x, say your prayers in some not annoying fashion, pilgrimages, tithes, prosyletize). A number of spells/abils would have their effects based off this favor. Con: stupid DnD and this you get divine spells as long as you believe in something...I believe in this rock so I get 6 Implosions/Miracles per day WotC isn't giving us money, so not really a con, it's our system to do with as we see fit. Real con: major gameplay mechanic that could be found out about only after making a character, but then we don't have a particular need to be idiot proof...only insofar as it's generally a good idea (and we know it doesn't take much to piss off a gamer). We plan on a deity system in some fashion anyway, but not too many particulars as yet.
Deity/align decides spells/abilities you can use Straightforward enough, no cleric of Tyr or good cleric will use say an Inflict type spell on something. Heal, buff and maybe fry something. Alternatively, no cleric of Mephistopheles would use a heal spell (or on undead say for cleric of Vecna). Same cons as above. Maybe rough to make a system to court another deity to get access to other spells, at least in an ingame believable way. Possible cookie cutter character syndrome as well.
Encourage cleric play in party Say buff and heal spells more effective on party members as opposed to self targeted. Con: no good ingame reason for it.
What goes for deities cleric-wise goes somewhat for Paladin as well. Deity + alignment and the order you belong to have a huge effect on your character's abilities, responsibilities and enemies. Bio didn't approach the issue at all and left both classes very munchkiny and cherrypicky.
Edit: So not many great ideas from us thus far (maybe Joran has something cool planned out he'll spring on us--it's happened before ).
Tep wrote:I login and there's a dwarf to kill. You can't ask for much more than that.
Alkapwn wrote:NC has the most amazing melee build there is. Its a friggin unstopable juggernaut of pain.
Remember....Jesus was a cleric, you don't have Jesus do you?
Okay that was dumb. But as my triumphant return to the forums (trumpets and fanfare!!!!) I would suggest putting dev efforts more into encouraging anti PK, or PKK leagues and bonuses so as to help stem the tide of seemingly high PK rates amongst the newest members of this fine game
Don't forget, Jesus saves.....
and takes half damage
I've tried fire, i've tried faith, and i've tried force, all I have left is hope.
Thoughts on the issues/ideas brought up for clerics in NS:
I guess I'd like to start by asking if there was any sort of over-arching guideline that the devs had in regards to clerics in NS. Are they meant to be wandering missionaries for their deity, fonts of that deity's wisdom? Are they meant to be shepards to the flocks of the faithful, more concerned about their religion's welfare than adventuring?
If all roles of the cleric are considered, I'd argue that the missionary (acting in the god's name or belief) fits the NS cleric the best.
With that "MetaJob" (missionaries) in place now for clerics, we can tailor the abilities for clerics. I don't think I'm alone in wanting clerics restricted by alignment and deity, as in your second suggestion. It only makes sense that certain deities would gravitate, or rather the followers of certain deities would gravitate to specific factions as opposed to others.
Suggestions: -Any extra, deity associated, ability be tied to a Holy Symbol item.
-Attach equipment (Armor, Weapons, Magic Items...) restrictions similar to the current item level restriction based on domain. Do travel domain clerics really favor heavy, bulky full plate when they travel?
-Temples to deities in the realm for distributing deity specific services, equipment, and information
Replies to to the three items you brought up as open ideas: -Deity Favoritism is a nice idea, but is it workable? will it slow performance?
-I'm all for Deity/allignment restrictions.
-I don't think you need to encourage group play any more than you need to encourage PKing...
Minor Suggestions: -What about creating Cleric access only doors? Maybe a scrip that recognizes a turn/rebuke undead attempt and opens a door based on that energy?
-Creating Cleric specific items?
attaching cleric abilities to a specific grade of merchandise... for example only Mithirl items and above have cleric abilities, or Iron and below has cleric abilities.
-Is there a way to script anti-cleric abilities to monsters?
Rather than nerfing the class by restricting the domains and thus flexibility and variety i suggest introducing an XP PENALTY for spells that kill monsters etc. that are not of the deity's sphere(s) of control.
In an example above if a TYR loving cleric was running around casting Harm or Slay Living or Inflict spells then any XP they were receiving should be penalised.
I don't know how hard this would be to implement but it is a viable alternative to restricting the variety of domains a cleric can choose.
The cleric has been a hotly debated topic ever since DnD 3e premiered. There have scores and scores of threads on this topic on PnP forums in addition to the ones on NWN forums. The concensus amongst PnP players is that the cleric <i>is</i> overpowered, but OK within a group game where roleplaying occurs and is more-or-less enforced (clerics and paladins can lose all their spells/abilities for certain actions for example). In my opinion the NWN engine takes things to a different level and the cleric has to have something else to balance it out with the other classes. Here are my cleric adjustments, based partly on my own PnP house rules and a huge (now locked) thread on the cleric on some PnP site (I forget which one):
Clerics have one good save: Will. Take away their good Fort save.
Clerics start with Light and Medium Armor Proficiency feats. Take away Heavy.
A lot of people in PnP circles like these adjustments and I can imagine they're not too difficult to make once the Devs figure out how to manually adjust the character files in-game with scripts.
My next suggestions are for the following clerical spells NWN: Resistance, Virtue, Bless, Divine Favor, Aid, Prayer, Battletide, and Divine Power. There are lots of problems as to how these are implemented in NWN as compared to how they work in PnP. I'll detail more tonight after work, but it comes down to how 3e's creators balanced stacking stats/bonuses in PnP...these NWN clerical spells tear a huge bloody hole into that delicate balance.
I dont understand what all the hooplah is about... Your arguement to nerf clerics even more (after the summon nerfs) is seeming to be based on a few arguements... each of which can be overturned in about 2-5 sentances.
Arguement One: It doesnt make sense that good clerics use evil spells, and vice versa.
Answer One: Example of military tactics, learn your enemies powers in order to use it against them. The ole "taste of their own medicine" ideas. By leaving the options open you open the possibilities the types of clerics (and also BTW increase the chance that a player will "nerf" his own character by screwing it up.) Thats a good thing because being able to make a unique character (even if imperfect) always turns out interesting to say the least.
Arguement Two: Clerics are currently the most powerful class.
Answer Two: There are several bases to this, the first being simply the number of clerics being played. This gives the illusion of most powerful when in truth alot of players enjoy clerics because they can raise their party... Clerics work best in parties not soloing and in turn no matter how you build them (other then TnT domains) that is how they work best.. And further, if you are argueing the TnT clerics are overpowered etc - then you have problems, they are good fighters and such but if a character has good saves, some fire res, then the cleric will have a HARD time fighting - any character can be oriented towards PvP... Okie Momma J. is a prime example of a cleric PvPer and maybe shes part of the reason why so many people try and create PvP clerics (in hopes to be as good as she is)
Sidenote One: Domains are really just used to gain 2-5 extra spells... (except trickery gives you +spot etc.) so its NOT that big of an advantage... And choosing anything besides Trickery and Travel together would put the cleric below the range of "Great" pvper. The spells you see like "Call Lightning" mowing down monsters are the spells that the cleric opted for instead of the edge in PvP combat... What does this mean? It means that the cleric is not more succeptable to PKers and such - and I think being able to have the Call Lightning spell is a fair trade.
Sidenote Two: Other then slay living, destruction, and one or two other spells the clerics dont particularly have any "Great" powerful spells to fight with unless they have certain domains --- and restricting domains would force players into bad builds or the factions they dont want to be part of. NC is a prime example... want to be a Good Cleric - NC is a good place... but hey can get "x" domain there so not gonna join the guild you wanted or level in the areas around which are built for paladins/clerics to level in etc... As Lokey put it - Cookie Cutter Clerics... CCC
Every AO cleric would be Domains XYZ while Every LA cleric would be domains ABC and every NC cleric would be DEF... get my point? Armies are build to be various in member types - not all the same type of cleric....
Leave things be friends... Leave things be.
----WILLPOWER MOTHER ****ers!
It takes most alcoholics their entire lives to recover... but for me... Im usually fine by noon.
--> {CLAD} Sir William the Angel
--> {CLAD} Sir William the GateKeeper
No offense intended here, Will, but your responses, while logically sound for wizards or sorces fails in several key areas for clerics.
It's my observation that your responses stem from a flawed premise. Clerics are not meant to be just a different flavor of spellcaster with different spells. Clerics are meant to be manifestations of their respective deities, hence domains and restrictions. As the gods in Neversummer and Neverwinter Nights are meant to lord over certain aspects of life (or death) the clerics of those gods are only meant to have access to the same powers that the god they worship controls.
And here's the responses to your individual arguments:
In response to your first Argument: "Use your enemies tactics against him" works for clerics of neutral alignment. And for Neutral Alignment clerics only, and even then, the Lawful Neutral cleric would never invoke a charm of chaos as a Chaotic Neutral cleric wouldn't seek to impose order through a Lawful domain spell. Good Clerics, if they are truly "good" abhor the methods and results of Evil actions, and therefore would shun direct damage spells like Harm, Cause Crit Wounds, Blind, or Poison. Likewise, Evil Clerics would never "stoop" to act kindly or show "weakness" by using tactics of Good clerics. Need an example? How about how Good Clerics can banish undead whereas Evil clerics rebuke and/or control undead? Good Clerics are meant to weild Positve energy while evil clerics have access to Negative energy.
Argument 2 "Clerics aren't the most powerful class": You argue that clerics aren't the most powerful class, yet your own argument contains several concessions... Travel & Trickery Clerics? They own. Trickery with almost any other domain... is pretty ruthless too. What about the fact that clerics get to cast their spells with no chance of spell failure in armor and shields. That means as good an AC as any fighter class. Think about all the buff spells that clerics can cast to improve their AB. Divine Power? Divine Favor? Not to mention all the resists. So there's AC, and AB. Let's toss in their Death (Slay Living, Destruction) and Damage (Flame Strike, Sun Beam) spells, and their Cause spells (Cause Crit, Harm, etc.) Curse isn't fun to get hit by either... So we have a character that has a potent offense... and they've got the Defense of a fighter. They may not have the Spell damage that Arcane casters have, but they have better armor, more resists, better saves... I'm a little confused how all this doesn't translate to a class of the highest caliber?
If clerics are brought back to what they were intended to be... mouth pieces for a certain way of life, a certain attitude, for specific aspects of life... there would be a great deal less whining about their uber-powers.
I'm a firm believer in clerics acting certain ways... if people want a more freeform class, go Wizard, go Sorce. Clerics shouldn't be Mages with armor and different spell choices.
Dear god....I don't want to hear it. Clerics are just one of the easiest classes to level. That easy. Thats why there are so many running around. once a cleric hits about lvl 22, they run into some very BLINDINGly huge problems.
1: CLERICS CAN"T USE SPOT: any char that has HiPS can kill a cleric. you don't think so? Ask a slave, Ashley Okie, or anyone else that uses HiPS. Clerics are pretty much useless against anything requiring a spot check, listen check, whatever the sneak attack damage from 2 rounds of fighting is enough to floor pretty much every cleric on the server.
2: Clerics have way too huge a casting time for their buffs. It takes forever to cast the number of spells required to get ready for a PvP battle. Smart chars can easily interrupt this.
3: Knockdown anyone? Discipline isn't a class skill for clerics...i would imagine that 99% of all clerics can be knocked down without much problem because of their pathetic discipline checks.
4: Called shot? Duh..if knockdown works...so too does called shot which is in a way much worse. Use called shot arm 10 times (2 rounds) and the cleric loses 20 AB....their buffs just became worthless. Meaning that fighter clerics get sucked down the drain at this point.
Clerics are supposed to be the party healer, the all around guy. He is good at nearly everything in V3 and V3.5 rulesets. however, teh Cleric isn't specialized in anything, and thus! he has blaring holes in his defense mechanisms. You use the 4 methods above, and you can kill a cleric in no time.
I've tried fire, i've tried faith, and i've tried force, all I have left is hope.
I am forced to agree with both ATI and Kong on this one. Clerics by and large originaly were intended perhaps moreso then any other class for the roleplay aspect of DnD being the advocates and elite of their respective religions. TnT clerics are a nightmare on all fronts and in almost any aspect you can come up with... however as ATI has stated they are far from invincible by any stretch of the imagination. Cleric are the healers and the spreaders of their faiths and beleifs. Not Death machines.
And I do beleive it prudent to mention that im speaking from the perspective of a Trickery and Travel Domain cleric. And I can tell you that the power you gain from these domains coupled with decent choiced feats creates a VERY difficult to beat build.
I am not in favor of a server full of TnT clerics from all factions.
I would put forth this suggestion if it hasnt already been made:
If not restricted by the deity they have chosen to serve then restrict them by the faction they have chosen. Example:
A) Clerics of the Shadow Legion are allowed Evil and Death
B) Mystral Ascendency Clerics are allowed Magic and Trickery
C) Northern Coalition Clerics are allowed Good and Sun
D) The Circle Clerics are allowed Animal and an element of their choice?
E) Last Alliance Clerics are allowed Travel and war.
F) Ancient Ones.....? need to think about that one
G) Ragnars kin clerics are allowed Protection and ???
I realize that the dev have already thought of something very simmilar to this concept but have not yet fully implimented it yet. I would also point out that the way I have set up the factions in this example Trickery and Travel Clerics have no become impossible. forcing clerics to choose domains and perhaps play into the roles they have chosen for once.
The above suggestion is also of course open to all kinds of changes and tweaking to fit the best formula of balance to make Neversummer a DIVERSE and unique playing experience for ALL classes and ALL factions.
I welcome constructive criticism and suggestions on this from anyone.
Returning to my comments on the cleric buffs; Resistance, Virtue, Bless, Divine Favor, Aid, Prayer, Battletide, Divine Power.
All bonuses to anything in PnP 3e have a descriptor. These descriptors are similar to the AC modifiers in NWN: Armor, Natural Armor, Shield, Deflection, Dodge. The total AC bonus from equipment, spells, etc. is calculated by factoring in the highest bonus from each, except Dodge and certain other miscellaneous bonuses (Size AC bonus, Armor Skin (which is actually a +2 Natural Armor bonus in PnP), Tumble). In PnP everything else behaves this way with certain types of modifiers stacking. "Unnamed" bonuses and, AFAIR, circumstance bonuses stack.
The problem with this suite of Cleric spells as implemented in NWN is that currently they all stack with each other. I'm going to list the types of bonuses provided by these spells now:
SPELL: DESCRIPTOR_0, STATS_0, AMOUNT_0; DESCRIPTOR_1, STATS_1, AMOUNT_1; etc.
Resistance: resistance, save versus fear, +1
Virtue: unnamed, hit points, +1
Bless: morale, attack bonus, +1; morale, save versus fear, +1
Divine Power: luck, attack bonus, +1 to +6; luck, damage, +1 to +6
Aid: morale, attack bonus, +1; morale, save versus fear, +1; unnamed hit points, +1d8
Battletide: *This spell isn't in the core rulebooks...anybody got the stats anywhere for PnP? In-game it provides a +2 bonus to attack bonus, damage, and saves.
Divine Power: enhancement, strength, +x up to 18; unnamed, hit points, +1 per caster level
According to PnP, Aid and Bless do not stack together. Prayer and Divine Favor do not stack together.
The way NS4 has adjusted the game balance from NWN, simply rebalancing the spells towards PnP may not be enough to fix the problem of all these spells stacking. I propose that this suite of spells be made more uniform and form a sort of linear progression of the same spell effect, similar to the cure/inflict suite. I'm not entirely sure as to what should happen to Divine Favor/Power, but the rest of the spells fit nicely into a suite of spells.
...
* The temporary hit points granted by these spells heal damage and create temporary hit points over the maximum if there are points left over. Repeated castings of any of the spells within this suite that grant temporary hit points can not grant any more than the target's HD * 1.
Further note: "Divine" bonuses do not stack, the highest modifier in effect counts.
Level 0
Resistance: +1 Divine bonus to all saves; 1 target, 1 turn/level
Virtue: +1 temporary hit point per target HD*; 1 target, 1 turn/level
Level 1
Bless: +1 Divine bonus to all saves and attack bonus; 1 target plus all within Gargatuan radius from target; 1 turn/level
Level 2
Aid: +1 Divine bonus to all saves, attack bonus, +1 temporary hit point per target HD*; 1 target plus all within Gargatuan radius from target; 1 turn/level
Level 3
Prayer: +1 Divine bonus to all saves, attack bonus, damage, skill checks, +1 temporary hit point per target HD*; -1 to all saves, attack bonus, damage, skill checks to enemies; 1 target plus all within Collosal radius from target, 1 turn/level
Level 5
Battletide: on casting caster and all allies gain +1 temporary hit point per target's HD*; aura that provides caster and allies within +2 Divine bonus to all saves, attack bonus, damage, skill checks; enemies within aura -2 to all saves, attack bonus, damage, skill checks; self target only with Large radius for hit point effect and aura; 1 turn/level
...
These adjustments would create a more reliable way of measuring any cleric's power and make it easier for clerics to boost their allies's power.
Divine Favor and Divine Power should still be adjusted in some way...I'm not sure how exactly, any thoughts from out there (provided you agree with my intent here)?
Good work guys. Thank you for taking the time to not only think out your suggestions but to also see the cons, hazards, and difficulties in implentation.
It may at times seem that we dont pay much attention to what the players are saying, the devs really are overloaded with the work that needs to be done. When well thought out and politely debated the odds of us blowing of a thread as so much spam drops dramaticly and the odds of the salient points getting through increase ten fold.
We still really do appreciate you the players even if we find it difficult at times to find the time to let you know. Keep up the good work here.
*Computers are alot like air-conditioners. They work great until you open windows*
Divine Favor and Divine Power could be spells that channel a piece of the deity's essence into the cleric...have the effect be dependent on alignment, similar to summons! These are just examples off the top of my head...I'd love to see other ideas if anybody out there thinks this is a cool idea.
Divine Favor
This is a level 2 spell, so the bonus shouldn't be too over the top, but significant. The two aspects of alignment dictate the two different bonuses the cleric gets (as opposed to simply AB bonus and magical damage bonus). These bonuses will stack with Divine Power and the Resistance-Battletide suite.
Lawful, Neutral, Chaos: AC (+1 per three caster levels up to 5), regeneration (+2 per three caster levels up to 10), +X/(X * 2) damage resistance where X is 1 per three caster levels up to +5/10.
Evil, Neutral, Good: negative energy damage, magical damage, positive energy damage...+1 damage per three levels up to 5
Perhaps even override some of these based on Domain
Fire, Water, Air, Earth domains override the damage type provided: fire damage, cold damage, electricity damage, acid damage
Divine Power
This is a level 4 spell, so the bonus should be more significant. This should remain a 1 round/level spell and therefore be a much more significant channeling of their deity's power. The original spell creating fighter AB and # of attacks is waaay too powerful, in my opinion.
Lawful, Neutral, Chaos: +1 AC per three caster levels (no cap), +1 hit point per three caster levels (no cap) * caster level, damage resistance -/X where X is 1 per three caster levels (no cap)
Evil, Neutral, Evil: damage bonus as Divine Favor with +1 AB per four caster levels (no cap)...this effectively gives the cleric a 1.0 BAB progression for their cleric levels without the # of attacks of a fighter
I touched on the particular spell "Find Traps" <a href="http://www.nsrealm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1749">here</a>, in PnP it <i>is</i> actually a buffing spell that lasts 1 minute/level that allows the target to search as a rogue for traps (traps with a DC greater than 26, IIRC) without any other bonus. This should be adjusted to a spell similar to Identify, Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, True Sight...add to target's Search skill checks. Identify is a good model to work off of: +10 to Search, +1/level, 1 turn/level.
I still think doing spells by diety faction will just make all clerics from each faction the exact same... Which takes the interest out of the game.
FURTHER - Character Creation occurs BEFORE faction choice... What if you choose a domain and then choose the wrong faction? You are left with no spells...
----WILLPOWER MOTHER ****ers!
It takes most alcoholics their entire lives to recover... but for me... Im usually fine by noon.
--> {CLAD} Sir William the Angel
--> {CLAD} Sir William the GateKeeper
* EDIT: Added some thoughts on Domains modifying spell effects and adjusted suggestions on bonuses.
Further thoughts on cleric spells:
Basing Summon spells off of alignment is a great game mechanic is one of the big reasons I keep coming back to NS...creative developers and deep gameplay! This idea can be expanded onto certain clerical spells.
In addition to Divine Favor and Divine Power being spells that are based off a cleric's alignment/domain choices, there are other spells that could be built off this idea. Protection From Alignment (1), Magic Circle Against Alignment (3), Aura Versus Alignment (8).
Out of the box these three spells must be cast one of two ways: protection from Evil or protection from Good.
Protection From Alignment is a level 1 spell that grants +2 Deflection AC, +2 all saves, and Mind-spell/effect immunity versus creatures/effect from the chosen alignment for 1 hour/level.
Magic Circle.. is a level 3 spell that grants the same protections as the level 1 flavor for all within a Medium radius the spell target for 1 hour/level.
Aura Verus Alignment is a level 8 spell that grants +4 Deflection AC, Mind-spell/effect immunity, and Spell Resistance 25 versus creatures from the chosen alignment for 1 round/level. In addition, in creatures striking the cleric receive 1d8 + 6 damage for striking the cleric (not clear from description whether striking is only melee attacks or what damage type it is).
One problem with changing these spells is that each of them are actually two separate spells, making them based on alignment may create the confusing situation of a "...from Evil" or "...from Good" spell actually have the same effect. Unless it could be scripted so that only the first icon/spell is used: "...from Alignment" and remove the ability to select the Evil/Good flavors.
A few things to consider when looking at this spell set: 1) the first two types are available to all spell casters, whereas the last one is only available to clerics, 2) Clarity is a level 3 spell that both removes and grants immunity to mind-spells/effects irregardless of alignment, and 3) with the high availability of items that grant Deflection AC and spells such as Mage Armor and Shield of Faith granting such the AC bonus from these spells has a high chance of being redundant.
...
Here is my specific proposal to change the spells:
First, to prevent cleric cheese, all bonuses granted by these spells are an "Alignment" bonus. Multiple spell effects from this suite do not stack, the highest of the multiple bonuses versus a specific creature/effect count.
Protection From Alignment affects a single target based on the caster's alignment for 1 turn/level.
Magic Circle Against Alignment affects one target plus all within a medium/10' distance from the target based on the caster's alignment for 1 turn/level.
Aura Versus Alignment creates an aura of size Large centered on the caster that affects all that remain within the aura based on caster's alignment for 1 round/level.
These spells grant three levels of protection against the various alignments depending on the caster's alignment. Below I have listed the levels of protection granted by specific alignments. The specific effect of Overwhelming, Strong, or Moderate protection depends on the spell cast.
* Evil Domain clerics cast protection spells that are always Overwhelming against Good, in addition to whatever effect their alignment has.
* Good Domain clerics cast protection spells that are always Overwhelming against Evil, in addition to whatever effect their alignment has.
<i>Lawful Good</i> Overwhelming against specific alignment: Chaotic Evil. Strong against Chaos and/or Evil.
<i>Lawful Neutral</i> Overwhelming against Chaos. Moderate against Good and/or Evil.
<i>Lawful Evil</i> Overwhelming against specific alignment: Chaotic Good. Strong against Chaos and/or Good.
<i>Neutral Good</i> Overwhelming against Evil. Moderate against Law and/or Chaos.
<i>True Neutral</i> Moderate against Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil.
<i>Neutral Evil</i> Overwhelming against Good. Moderate against Law and/or Chaos.
<i>Chaotic Good</i> Overwhelming against specific alignment: Lawful Evil. Strong against Law and/or Evil.
<i>Chaotic Neutral</i> Overwhelming against Law. Moderate against Good and/or Evil.
<i>Chaotic Evil</i> Overwhelming against specific alignment: Lawful Good. Strong against Law and/or Good.
Now for the specific spells and the protections they grant.
<b>Protection From Alignment</b>
Overwhelming grants Immunity to Fear, +2 Alignment bonus to all saves, and +2 Alignment bonus to (internally, something that stacks...Dodge?) AC.
Strong grants +2 Alignment bonus to all saves and +2 Alignment bonus to (internally, something that stacks...Dodge?) AC.
Moderate grants +1 Alignment bonus to all saves and +1 Alignment bonus to (internally, something that stacks...Dodge?) AC.
<b>Magic Circle Against Alignment</b>
Overwhelming grants Immunity to Fear, +3 Alignment bonus to all saves, and +3 Alignment bonus to (internally, something that stacks...Dodge?) AC.
Strong grants Immunity to Fear, +2 Alignment bonus to all saves and +2 Alignment bonus to (internally, something that stacks...Dodge?) AC.
Moderate grants +2 Alignment bonus to all saves and +2 Alignment bonus to (internally, something that stacks...Dodge?) AC.
<b>Aura Versus Alignment</b> This spell has an effect on allies and enemies.
Overwhelming grants all allies SR 12 + 1/caster level, Immunity to Fear, +4 Alignment bonus to all saves, and +4 Alignment bonus to (internally, something that stacks...Dodge?) AC. Enemies are affected as if by a fear aura with the appropriate DC: 10 + 8 (spell level) + Wis modifer of caster. Any enemies striking the caster with physical damage that are also within the aura are hit with 1d8 + (1 per 3 caster levels) of Divine damage.
Strong grants Immunity to Fear, +4 Alignment bonus to all saves and +4 Alignment bonus to (internally, something that stacks...Dodge?) AC. Enemies are affected as if by a fear aura with the appropriate DC: 10 + 8 (spell level) + Wis modifer of caster.
Moderate grants Immunity to Fear, +3 Alignment bonus to all saves and +3 Alignment bonus to (internally, something that stacks...Dodge?) AC.
WotC isn't giving us money, so not really a con, it's our system to do with as we see fit. Real con: major gameplay mechanic that could be found out about only after making a character, but then we don't have a particular need to be idiot proof...only insofar as it's generally a good idea (and we know it doesn't take much to piss off a gamer). We plan on a deity system in some fashion anyway, but not too many particulars as yet.
).
