I suggest everyone read

[Knightwing4]

The Player Whimping Guidebook

VERY interesting read for all modules, i found a ton of relevance in other servers i've played at

[HealingBreeze]

An excellent read, with enough humor to keep it from sounding too preachy. I highly reccomend you all read it.

[OneManArmy]

very good read. some key sentences to keep in mind :

"Now IF you are so damn interested in balancing classes, and you feel that this is of paramount importance, then they key is to GIVE and not to take. GIVE new skill-sets or powers to the ones you feel are weaker [...] If you had two knives, one dull and one sharp, would it not make better sense to make them equal by sharpening the dull one - not by blunting the sharp one?"

[Hulgaru]

The problem with giving instead of taking is that some aspects of the game are so overbalanced that you can't give enough to the weaker class.

To borrow the analogy of the knives. You have children. And children are prone to take out their frustrations on other children... do you take away the sharp knife and replace it with a blunt knife, or do you give all the children sharp knives and hope that the children are mature enough to know what mutually assured ass-kicking is?

For a mod based on Faction-Strife (ergo, PvP) giving everybody really sharp knives sounds well and good in the beginning... but in reality, it makes things into everything that the Devs were trying to get away from in NS3. No more UBER saves for everyone, no more UBER weapons for everyone.

So while it may behoove us to keep that article in mind... also keep in mind the NS is not like most mods.

[Knightwing4]

The problem with giving instead of taking is that some aspects of the game are so overbalanced that you can't give enough to the weaker class.

To borrow the analogy of the knives. You have children. And children are prone to take out their frustrations on other children... do you take away the sharp knife and replace it with a blunt knife, or do you give all the children sharp knives and hope that the children are mature enough to know what mutually assured ass-kicking is?

For a mod based on Faction-Strife (ergo, PvP) giving everybody really sharp knives sounds well and good in the beginning... but in reality, it makes things into everything that the Devs were trying to get away from in NS3. No more UBER saves for everyone, no more UBER weapons for everyone.

So while it may behoove us to keep that article in mind... also keep in mind the NS is not like most mods.

Tenny, I just found out that the Druid Spell 'stick poke' has been overpowered since we put it in!
Lets see if I got this right: You have an established spell that people have come to rely upon that you just figured out all this time later was over powered? Well then in point of fact it can't be that overpowered can it? If it was, you would have seen this class just wiping the floor with the others long before this and you would have corrected it within a month of its inception. You did not. Therefore your assessment that this is going to mess up your mud is fallacious. Had it been that big a deal before, it wouldn't have gone for a period of months without being noticed.

Also

Tenny, I just put in the Mage Spell 'urine pool' and found out that it is too powerful, you cant say that I shouldn't reduce it are you?
Hell no! Though some would argue the point I don't feel I am that stupid. When you have a brand new skill or spell make sure your players know that you will be making changes as they are warranted. But hold yourself to a limited beta period for each item. A month or two at the most. My thesis through this entire treatise has been that it is the ESTABLISHED skills and spells that you have a moral right not to mess with as people count on them. If you put in something new, and people know that its in testing, then they also know not to count on it. Once its in and relied upon, its too late.


In other words, that's what the beta's for, to adjust stuff like this.

Also, digital knives and RL knives have a big difference

Finally, adding a new ability does not make something automatically "uber" if the devs don't want everyone to be uber, there's varying degrees and buffs, thus unless you add a totally imbalanced spell of ultimate doom kablooie, you can't really go wrong

[JesterOI]

If something is overpowered beyond everything else, then it should be toned down.
But if it's a general imbalance, then bumping up the less favoured side would be the best approach I would think.
The sharp knife / dull knife analogy is a very good one.

[Knightwing4]

If something is overpowered beyond everything else, then it should be toned down.
But if it's a general imbalance, then bumping up the less favoured side would be the best approach I would think.
The sharp knife / dull knife analogy is a very good one.

agreed

[Hulgaru]

Tenny, I just found out that the Druid Spell 'stick poke' has been overpowered since we put it in!
Lets see if I got this right: You have an established spell that people have come to rely upon that you just figured out all this time later was over powered? Well then in point of fact it can't be that overpowered can it? If it was, you would have seen this class just wiping the floor with the others long before this and you would have corrected it within a month of its inception. You did not. Therefore your assessment that this is going to mess up your mud is fallacious. Had it been that big a deal before, it wouldn't have gone for a period of months without being noticed.

Let's think about this for a second, shall we? Let us say we do have an established "spell", let's call it Greater Sanctuary! It has no drawbacks, it has no counters. Why haven't we changed it? Oh yeah... it's not our intellectual property, therefore we don't have the right to... several months down the line... we release our own mod that has changed nearly every line of Bioware's scripts... essentially making it our game... and our game is still in Beta. We can change it if we want to. The quote you gave, Knightwing4, may fit for tier one developers as they consider what to do with a retail product... or something that has been in release for a while... But what we have here, although labeled a Beta most of the time, is a multi-player alpha. Game mechanics are still being tweaked. The situation NS is in simply doesn't mesh well with the example that you've given there. I see this more of a chance for the Devs to fix what might have been wrong in the beginning

Tenny, I just put in the Mage Spell 'urine pool' and found out that it is too powerful, you cant say that I shouldn't reduce it are you?
Hell no! Though some would argue the point I don't feel I am that stupid. When you have a brand new skill or spell make sure your players know that you will be making changes as they are warranted. But hold yourself to a limited beta period for each item. A month or two at the most. My thesis through this entire treatise has been that it is the ESTABLISHED skills and spells that you have a moral right not to mess with as people count on them. If you put in something new, and people know that its in testing, then they also know not to count on it. Once its in and relied upon, its too late.

Valid for a released product that has only one minor element being tweaked. I don't believe that this example fits with the scope that we are dealing with when it comes to NS. For all intents and purposes, it may be best to examine NS4 as a completely new product. So much is being customized... including spells, abilities, monsters, treasure, NPC mechanincs.... FAR too many aspects have changed to limit ourselves to the short-time-frame that is discussed in the article you cited.

Also, digital knives and RL knives have a big difference

I was talking about digital knives. Think about it. Everybody whois everybody all takes one SD level for HiPS... you can't tell me that doesn't have the same relevancy? How about this. In NS3, everybody and their mother took one level in Paladin, just to use Fang of the Great One (Great Sword) or the Pally charisma bonus to saving throws. Or what about RDD running around everywhere?? The analogy fits. If we give the NS community a bunch of sharp-knife character enhancements (be they improved class abilities, improved class specific gear, or improved abilities/spells) then that'll be the way to go... on the road to far too much Uberness. That path leads to the dark side ( ) of Monty Haul mods. No thank you.

Finally, adding a new ability does not make something automatically "uber" if the devs don't want everyone to be uber, there's varying degrees and buffs, thus unless you add a totally imbalanced spell of ultimate doom kablooie, you can't really go wrong

I'm confused. How does adding one ability equate to levelling the playing field between classes. Can you tell me one ability that a Harper Scout has that could be improved to put it on par with a Pale-Master or a Cleric? Not really. This may work for the classes at the top of the list... but if all the top level classes get bonuses added, how does that improve the lot for the other classes?

Seeing how Bioware created a few "noble" classes, i.e. classes with a lot more privileges, and a few "peasant" classes... we have to decide... do give them all nobility, or do we make them all peasants? I think making them peasants gives them more room to grow, personally.

[AndrewCarr]

I liked the part about nerfing. And yeah, although i've always said "buff, don't nerf" in really every case, things like dev crit have made me think differently, since although it'd be nice, there'd be a lot of things needing buffing in order for things to be balanced, while removing the feat works pretty well instead.
But yeah, nerfing doesn't seem to make the nerfed ppl happy, or others, who may disagree with it, while buffing makes the person buffed happy, while giving others hope that they'll be buffed up to balance as well.

[TGPO]

*sigh* 3 points to make.

1: regarding nerfing, you will notice that even in there he says that during beta you get the classes and such balanced the way you want them. Its not nerfing until AFTER beta. The fact that there hasnt been a vault wipe yet is generosity on the devs part because due to many issues that croped up and were resolved during the first flurry one has been needed since around the third week.

2: Modifications to many of the classes that are hard coded would require a hak pak to resolve. If you hadnt noticed the devs have gone to extreme lengths to avoid using them in any shape or form. This is so a broader range of players are free to join without having to make the effort of tracking down the elusive and often missing hakpak.

3: The addition only philosphy has been used in the past, its how NS3 became such a tanking fragfest. There are times when adding a little here and there can fix the issue at hand, others when toning something down just a bit would be the more balanced fix. Lets also add in that every blessed time bioware "patchs" that a good majority of things that were balanced and running right gets blown all to hell (thanks guys for the great PW support).

In closing a reminder that even the author of that page agrees on, in playing NS4 right now you are willingly participating in a beta test. During a beta even a new and different rebuild of the whole engine and wholesale modification of every aspect should always be expected. Doesnt mean it will happen, but it could. Beta is exactly that, an alert to you the players that this is a work in progress that what you were doing yesterday just may not be possible anymore when you log in today. Its not done maliciously, its just working the kinks in the system out until we reach the point that the view the devs are sharing with you is the one they envisioned in the first place.

We arent there yet, but we are getting closer.

[HealingBreeze]

I understand it's only Beta, therefore nerfs will happen. Frankly, I wouldn't mind a Vault wipe, though that's most likely because I'm only lv 14.

In regards to the class changes, I wholeheartidly support the actions of the devs in trying to avoid a hakpak. Bravo! There's always going to be some classes that are weaker than others, that's the facts of life. The thing I don't understand is why you all seem to focus on COMBAT EFFECTIVENESS above all other factors. Yes, that Fighter may be stronger than your Rogue, but let's see him get past this DC40 lock...not happenin'

Also, at least in my experience, Rogues have always leveled up more through RP and sneakiness (i.e. attacking from behind) rather than direct Hack/Slash.

While I know this server is FAR from RP-intensive (Hell, that's one of my favorite things about it), perhaps you could simply introduce a questgiver that caters to those less combat-oriented classes, namely Rogues. The reward? Why, XP of course. Perhaps a % of the total, similar to a favored class bonus? Of course, the quest would need to be limited to once per level, perhaps via a small item, similar to those given for Special abilities?

Well, just my 2 cents. This keeps from making all the classes equal powerhouses without nerfing anything. What do you think?

[DrakhanValane]

Don't underestimate a rogue's combat effectiveness. Sneak attack damage adds up quickly. :)

[HealingBreeze]

I just chose Rogue because I hear more complaints about them than any other class, save maybe Shifter.

[DrakhanValane]

That's another problem: People complain about a class being underpowered, but it can be a matter of play style. Done right, any class can excel without many setbacks. Done wrong, any class can be a pain to play.

[Ryu Ironclad]

DV, I challenge you to show me a good harper scout build.