Shifter fix?

[Spura]

Spura, I think you're using circular logic. Yes, the Rakshasa is currently a bad caster... which is why I think it's a good idea to improve the DCs and damage of his spells. Yup, tie those bad boys to Shifter level instead of Druid level. Add a DC boost for high Wisdom. Change Dispel to Greater Dispel.

You really didn't understand when I spoke about spells, did you? Let me tell you again:
SPELLS USE HIGHEST CASTER LEVEL OF YOUR BUILD AND DEVS CAN'T CHANGE THAT!!!!!

Now what DCs are you talking here about?
1. Dispel currently acts the same as Greater Dispel there is no difference to them due to broken script function. Also dispel and greater dispel will be the same for druid 10 shifter 30 in 1.63. Also if you made 20 druid 20 shifter in 1.63 greater dispel won't be able to touch caster level 25 or higher. THERE IS NO DC.
2. Ice storm: Uses caster level. THERE IS NO DC.
3. Mestil's Acid Breath: Already uses standard caster DC of 10+mod+focus+spell level. Damage is capped at lvl 10.
4. Magic missile, uses druid level, capped at 10. THERE IS NO DC.

Modifying ANY scripts will cause ALL casters to use modified versions. Raising amount of damage on ice storm for instance will make ALL classes have stronger ice storm.

Now, do you see that spells can't be changed for shifters only, most of them don't have DC and damage is regulated by your caster levels instead of shifter levels(and that can't be changed as well). So rkondia you are talking about changing spells when very clearly there is nothing to change except scraping the whole thing and giving shapes elemental bursts or something instead of spells.

[Spura]

I think that making all of the shapes viable without any other classes is the better choice for letting people 'play the shifter the way they want to', because then everybody is free to choose - or NOT choose - a third class as they see fit.

Fine by me! Give me higher AC, then give me glove melding for unarmed shapes to offset the extra damage of armed shapes, I would bring that damage back in with 5 attacks per round with monk. If devs want to make all shapes viable there it is. I am sure noone will use unarmed shapes when there are keen massive critical extra damage weapons around unless you change it somehow. Also when we are so happy on balance, devs wisely decided that STR bonuses are only available on gloves which no shapes at all meld. Result is that besides maxed bull str I have no way of getting my str up for longer period of time. That means best shapes as far as AB goes will be epic kobold cos I can get dex from boots and epic whipmaster. That is of course unless they make gloves meld. There you go an alternative to monk: AC boost and glove melding. Peace all, I'm outy.

[IcemanXV]

(as obvious by your disbelief in their ability to help the shifter class)

I wouldn't trust devs with half of pint of lukewarm beer. IcemanXV do you actually play the class or are you here just to make smartass comments? Don't lie now.

I've made many druids and druid multiclasses. I am here to make sure shifters have a fighting chance.

It seems you're here to be a thorn in the devs' sides. If you don't believe the devs can do anything, why the hell are you even here? That's MY point. I fail to see how I'm the problem here, when you adamantly won't accept the possibility that shifters could be good after the devs fix the forms.

As I said the devs need info, advice, and support. Not trusting them and calling them names isn't going to get you your way, so you might as well quit while you're behind. I think what the majority of the people here believe is that shifter can be good without monk if the forms are created properly. I personally expect the forms to be very usable once they are overhauled. However this is no small feat to accomplish, so you have to give the devs time and patience.


Mentioning glove melding and such is the correct way to go about it....see what I mean? That's all it took.

[Lokey]

Spura, I think you're using circular logic. Yes, the Rakshasa is currently a bad caster... which is why I think it's a good idea to improve the DCs and damage of his spells. Yup, tie those bad boys to Shifter level instead of Druid level. Add a DC boost for high Wisdom. Change Dispel to Greater Dispel.

You really didn't understand when I spoke about spells, did you? Let me tell you again:
SPELLS USE HIGHEST CASTER LEVEL OF YOUR BUILD AND DEVS CAN'T CHANGE THAT!!!!!

Now what DCs are you talking here about?
1. Dispel currently acts the same as Greater Dispel there is no difference to them due to broken script function. Also dispel and greater dispel will be the same for druid 10 shifter 30 in 1.63. Also if you made 20 druid 20 shifter in 1.63 greater dispel won't be able to touch caster level 25 or higher. THERE IS NO DC.
2. Ice storm: Uses caster level. THERE IS NO DC.
3. Mestil's Acid Breath: Already uses standard caster DC of 10+mod+focus+spell level. Damage is capped at lvl 10.
4. Magic missile, uses druid level, capped at 10. THERE IS NO DC.

Modifying ANY scripts will cause ALL casters to use modified versions. Raising amount of damage on ice storm for instance will make ALL classes have stronger ice storm.

Now, do you see that spells can't be changed for shifters only, most of them don't have DC and damage is regulated by your caster levels instead of shifter levels(and that can't be changed as well). So rkondia you are talking about changing spells when very clearly there is nothing to change except scraping the whole thing and giving shapes elemental bursts or something instead of spells.

Sorry, you're mistaken on all counts.

Some shifted abilities go through standard spell scripts, but there's an easy way to distinguish shifter abilities from normal spells. Others are only used for shifter abilities and can be likewise changed.

Better DC scale, level based effect and so forth can all be done. Server side changes can provide different abilities as well. Melding bonuses through item properties is also not the optimal to do it for a number of reasons. Have you used dispel in NS4? Works pretty much the way we expect Bio to change it in 1.63 already except spell focus abjuration actually does something...though there is a sliding scale for caster level that I want to add at some point as suggested by Dallas and others.

Oh and relax, yeesh.

[Jumbalaya]

Having tried( and unsuccessfully) to make a druid/bard/shifter, I can tell you that the problem is that, in their base form, shifters are a poor class without decent ac. With monk you benefit from the high wisdom and make the shapes much more viable vis-a-vis enemies.

After having gone through this spirited discussion, I also have yet to see a reason as to why monks are not allowed in TC. And for those that cry: "But what about the RP aspect?!" I say hogwash. The fact is that there could be one or two monks that decide a monastery is not for them, that they seek to embrace the natural world instead of the world of men. They are druids, yes, but they are also monks, who focus on honing their skills in the natural world.

A suggestion: One of the jobs/quests for TC could be( for LN characters ONLY) a way to hone your mind to be allowed to take levels of monk. Thus monks are allowed, the RP aspect has been touched on, and shifters no longer suck giant chunks of monkey cheese. Please note, I am certain that some people will think this is a patently stupid idea, but at least it is an option.

Also, why AA are not the PrC for TC is a bit confusing. Yes, Shifters are more "natural" but AA makes more sense. It is stereotypical, but elves=forest. Yes, bards are the only thing that can be used for an AA build in TC, but that is fine. Personally, I always go with a bard for the spell aspect of AA because I can get better ab, and my hp are a bit better than going with either sorc or wiz for the spell aspect.

Just my 0.02 cents (Canadian)

[Spura]

Spura, I think you're using circular logic. Yes, the Rakshasa is currently a bad caster... which is why I think it's a good idea to improve the DCs and damage of his spells. Yup, tie those bad boys to Shifter level instead of Druid level. Add a DC boost for high Wisdom. Change Dispel to Greater Dispel.

You really didn't understand when I spoke about spells, did you? Let me tell you again:
SPELLS USE HIGHEST CASTER LEVEL OF YOUR BUILD AND DEVS CAN'T CHANGE THAT!!!!!

Now what DCs are you talking here about?
1. Dispel currently acts the same as Greater Dispel there is no difference to them due to broken script function. Also dispel and greater dispel will be the same for druid 10 shifter 30 in 1.63. Also if you made 20 druid 20 shifter in 1.63 greater dispel won't be able to touch caster level 25 or higher. THERE IS NO DC.
2. Ice storm: Uses caster level. THERE IS NO DC.
3. Mestil's Acid Breath: Already uses standard caster DC of 10+mod+focus+spell level. Damage is capped at lvl 10.
4. Magic missile, uses druid level, capped at 10. THERE IS NO DC.

Modifying ANY scripts will cause ALL casters to use modified versions. Raising amount of damage on ice storm for instance will make ALL classes have stronger ice storm.

Now, do you see that spells can't be changed for shifters only, most of them don't have DC and damage is regulated by your caster levels instead of shifter levels(and that can't be changed as well). So rkondia you are talking about changing spells when very clearly there is nothing to change except scraping the whole thing and giving shapes elemental bursts or something instead of spells.

Sorry, you're mistaken on all counts.

Some shifted abilities go through standard spell scripts, but there's an easy way to distinguish shifter abilities from normal spells. Others are only used for shifter abilities and can be likewise changed.

Better DC scale, level based effect and so forth can all be done. Server side changes can provide different abilities as well. Melding bonuses through item properties is also not the optimal to do it for a number of reasons. Have you used dispel in NS4? Works pretty much the way we expect Bio to change it in 1.63 already except spell focus abjuration actually does something...though there is a sliding scale for caster level that I want to add at some point as suggested by Dallas and others.

Oh and relax, yeesh.

Lokey I wasn't talking about shifter abilities, I was talking about shifter spells. Are you telling me that shifter uses separate scripts for dispel, ice storm, burning hands, acid spray?


Wrong on all counts? Get yourself a class in logic. That claim of yours would mean: Shifter ice storm has DC, shifters don't use highest class level available(usually druid), acid breath is not capped at 10 and doesn't use standard DC. Greater dispell can dispel a lvl 25 caster in 1.63(proper rolls). Don't throw word all around.

Some shifted abilities

Did I say abilities? Well, I could swear I said spells.. weird..
If I recall correctly I never mentioned chaos spittle, breath weapons, mind blast, manticore spikes, dominate gaze, petrify gaze,... I know those DCs can be changed. I can probably tell you here which scripts they are in. But you can't change spell. rkondia was talking about casting shapes and I was talking about spells. You are talking abilities + spells here saying ability DCs can be changed. Well DUH!! Still, SPELLS are caster level dependant for SR penetration and damage.

You misinterpret my posts in a way you see fit.

[Spura]

(as obvious by your disbelief in their ability to help the shifter class)

I wouldn't trust devs with half of pint of lukewarm beer. IcemanXV do you actually play the class or are you here just to make smartass comments? Don't lie now.

I've made many druids and druid multiclasses. I am here to make sure shifters have a fighting chance.

Correction. You play caster druid, you are here to make remarks about other posters while not contributing ANY ideas. I don't see how you qualify to post in this topic since you have no experience in this.

Not trusting them and calling them names isn't going to get you your way, so you might as well quit while you're behind.

Really? I don't recall calling them names.

I think what the majority of the people here believe is that shifter can be good without monk if the forms are created properly.

Would you care to prove that?Head over to player polls. At the time of this post there is one person for monks more than for overhaul. Even if it was even that wouldn't be a majority. Also if you ask people who actually played shifter here, I think percentage would be even more in the favor of monk. Ok we know rkondia here is against. But I found 2 guys with low level shifters on server 1 that would like to see monk class available along with me that makes us 3 and I bet I could find more. How can you reliably speak of majority? Let's make a poll where only people who have shifter level 3 or more should answer and then take the results.

[IcemanXV]

Spura, I play a caster druid. You are completely correct. But I am also friends with some DMs and devs, and I find your posting very rude. Regardless if I have any "say" in the matter, or so you put it, I do have a right to let you know you are being a jerk to everyone just because a class you play is underpowered at the moment.

I have played a shifter before, so I do have SOME experience. I have suggested an overhaul of the forms, which will probably happen. I also think there isn't much else I can contribute in that sense. However I can do my part to keep civility here, and I'm going to. I suggest you take a deep breath before you start a post, you seem like a very angry person. Especially since this is just discussion about a video game.

I also qualified to post in this topic as soon as I became a registered member. My posts have not beem spam, in fact they have been an attempt to make this a good discussion/debate, NOT an argument. Until a forum moderator, DM, r dev comes in here and tells me I have no right to post, I will continue doing so.

[AlienOverlord]

I have a possible non-monk solution. I was going to try it out, but I'm happy with my other chars, so let me know if this works. Multiclass the shifter with cleric and take the divine feats for extra AC and damage. You would need to boost your cha and need at least 13 str as prereq which will limit your char balance, but I've seen people use this ability very well. My char would have been asimar (+2 wis,+2cha) with starting stats
str 13
dex 13
con 10
int 13
wis 13
cha 15

Maybe lower dex or wis if you don't want the feats that go with them and boost cha more. Then you also can boost cha with the cleric spell. Level progression is also tricky, I thought maybe druid 7/ cleric 3/ shifter 10. You get all the shifter levels but lose 1 bab at level 20 (14 instead of 15) but you can cast level 5 summons (thanks to animal domain) and stoneskin.

[rkanodia]

Spura, maybe you should try listening to Lokey, seeing as he is a developer. I don't know about Shifters specifically, but certainly other spells granted as class abilities follow separate scripts from the spells they ape. For instance, a Blackguard's usage of Bull's Strength stacks with a cleric's/wizard's, because they aren't considered the same spell internally.

[DrakhanValane]

Please keep it civil. If this degrades into a simple flamefest I'll have to lock the thread. If someone's post makes you angry... take a few deep breaths before posting a response. Thank you.

[Jumbalaya]

Interesting AlienOverlord, however I see a flaw with your build. Mainly that for the really good shapes, you need a very high Wis. So with that 13 in wisdom, you are going to have a very hard time to get to 30 wisdom, for dragon shape.

Even with the 10 from levels, that's 23. Which means 7 epic feats getting epic wisdom, which means you cannot get the feats like outsider shape or golem shape.

otherwise, an interesting idea, to be sure.

[AlienOverlord]

Yeah, you may have to sacrifice everything but the undead shapes (which require no wisdom and are quite cool) or you could sarifice int (and with it expertise, and IKD) and maybe some dex too. The only given is 13 str and good charisma, so how about this asimar:
Str 14
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 8
Wis 16(asimar +2)
Cha 16(asimar+2)

Not as well balanced, but a better caster and if you choose wis over cha (which is kinda against the point of the build) you can get all the epic shapes. Anyway, seems like a good option for temporary AC and damage. You could also have access to divine spells for more power and ab, but like I said it is hard to balance wanting more cleric when you need 5 levels of druid and you get stoneskin at 7th and wanting 10 levels of shifter. At least there is a lot of room for personal choices.

[Bob]

In case you're going to try it out, just keep in mind the wisdom bonus you mentioned isn't added on as a base bonus. Due to scripting issues, it's only equivilent to an item bonus, so you still need to take those extra 2 points as stat increases at level-up or character creation in order to qualify, say, for the 30 wisdom needed to take Dragon Shape.

[Spura]

Well question is, are dragon and golem shapes worth anything. If phsical resists go any higher than 25% 10/- they are on now, then I'm afraid they become pretty crappy except if you want use iron golem for tanking for other people. But then again at the current AC that probably won't work either. Hm glove melding would help. Presently most shapes benefit from STR the most yet all the STR is on gloves. I am considering throwing away the usual 15+ druid levels in my builds even though they help vs SR for ice storm and magic missile and go for more shifter levels.