I've been playing on NS4 nearly since the beta was opened to the public and I've spent most of my time playing various casters. At level 13 it's entirely possible for a caster to have a DC30 on Finger of Death (DC33 if you're really serious about death magic) Ok, so you're a level 13 character running around with a one-shot-one-kill cannon at this point... all of the melee characters moan and whine about this because their saves at level 13 will be nowhere near this level... that's the good news... enjoy it... have fun with it...
The bad news is that that absolute maximum DC for a death magic (Wail) spell will end up at 47 although I doubt most casters will reach this number for a variety of reasons (care to give up all divination spells?) Considering how much gear (armor, belts, etc.) adds to fort saves and death magic saves, even DC47 is beatable on a very regular basis with a little common sense.
I believe once we all reach level 40 it will become all too apparent just how underpowered casters are... the buffed up summons that are so good during the early levels will mean nothing against a level 40 melee character... casters will all be sitting ducks for knockdown attacks even if they've managed to work discipline into their builds. By level 40, no caster will have a fighting chance against even a moderately well-built level 40 melee character (trust me on this!) Sure, a caster may fall back on epic spells, but given the limited number of castings, a caster will not be able to inflict enough damage to kill a melee player.
It's really fun to play a caster, but in the end they're going to stink. The best advice I can give is go ahead and accept that casters will make terrible solo characters (especially in PvP) and find a strong melee character to partner up with... enjoy the good times boys... they're not going to last.
Casters Beware!!! The Death of Death Magic and Casters
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DrakhanValane
- Arrogant Snob
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Considering there is only content for up to about level 20 right now, it's kinda silly to argue about what happens at level 40. Once the content for higher levels is in then worry about it. The Devs might have some tricks up their sleeves you don't know about yet.
If you tilt your head far enough and squint hard enough, anything becomes as simple or complex as you'd like--regardless of whether it is or not. -- A lesson learned from Stephen Wolfram's A New Kind of Science
Actually 47 is not the top of the DC chart. I'd look a little harder yet. Not counting ability modifiers or class modifiers such as the paladins bonus to save the max save at level 40 is 22. There are many many modifiers to this and running through all the possible variations for this post is daunting at best.
Your concerns were addressed even before beta was opened up to the public. Needless to say a well built caster (and if your only reaching DC 47 your build isnt that hot) will be able to land spells around 25% of the time even against the SR subraces.
Your concerns were addressed even before beta was opened up to the public. Needless to say a well built caster (and if your only reaching DC 47 your build isnt that hot) will be able to land spells around 25% of the time even against the SR subraces.
*Computers are alot like air-conditioners. They work great until you open windows*
The absolute maximum INT a character will have is 50 (and doing that really wrecks your build) So there is +20 on a spell's DC... assuming you take all 3 spell focus feats (focus, greater focus, epic focus) that'll add 6... your base is a 10 + spell level so we're up to 45 (20 + 6 + 10 + 9) and it is possible to add another two by choosing a school of magic to specialize in (and giving up the ability to cast see invisibility, true seeing, identify and premonition among other spells) so we're back to our maximum DC47 on death magic (or any magic for that matter)
This isn't some hypothetical situation or theory... it's a fact. If someone knows a way to a higher spell DC please let me know (consider that a challenge) No items add to a spell's DC in this situation (lowly belts can do this, but they don't apply AT ALL in this case) Even assuming that no better armor/items are introduced into the game, it's obvious to anyone who has basic math skills that casters peak early and gradually are passed by melee characters as their saves rise dramatically faster than a caster's spell DC. Having armor, belts and other gear with added fortitude saves guarantees that a caster will have no chance vs. a melee character in a 1 on 1 fight. Just because my highest level caster is only level 22 doesn't mean I haven't computed his saves and spell DC at level 40. Just because I haven't seen a level 40 melee character doesn't mean I don't already have a good idea about his final saves. For a caster to raise his spell DC by 4 he will need to spend 8 epic feats on Great Intelligence (or Charisma) A melee character will only need to spend a single epic feat (Epic Fortitude) to completely negate the caster's 8 epic feats.
For now the server has a fairly good mix of races and classes, but once everyone (who is too lazy to crunch the numbers out early) sees how level 40 characters stack up, you will see a dramatic shift towards melee based characters... I realize that the module is still in beta form and I realize that new items may be added, but I don't see anything changing this scenario.
It was fun while it lasted.
This isn't some hypothetical situation or theory... it's a fact. If someone knows a way to a higher spell DC please let me know (consider that a challenge) No items add to a spell's DC in this situation (lowly belts can do this, but they don't apply AT ALL in this case) Even assuming that no better armor/items are introduced into the game, it's obvious to anyone who has basic math skills that casters peak early and gradually are passed by melee characters as their saves rise dramatically faster than a caster's spell DC. Having armor, belts and other gear with added fortitude saves guarantees that a caster will have no chance vs. a melee character in a 1 on 1 fight. Just because my highest level caster is only level 22 doesn't mean I haven't computed his saves and spell DC at level 40. Just because I haven't seen a level 40 melee character doesn't mean I don't already have a good idea about his final saves. For a caster to raise his spell DC by 4 he will need to spend 8 epic feats on Great Intelligence (or Charisma) A melee character will only need to spend a single epic feat (Epic Fortitude) to completely negate the caster's 8 epic feats.
For now the server has a fairly good mix of races and classes, but once everyone (who is too lazy to crunch the numbers out early) sees how level 40 characters stack up, you will see a dramatic shift towards melee based characters... I realize that the module is still in beta form and I realize that new items may be added, but I don't see anything changing this scenario.
It was fun while it lasted.
DM TPGP: Consider Yourself Challenged
I do not believe it is possible for any caster to exceed DC47 on any spell and I will not believe it until I see differently. I have read everything imaginable on casting and I firmly believe that DC47 is the maximum given the playable subraces. The DC47 required a +5 INT helmet in addition to +5 INT from Maximized Fox's Cunning. It also requires 3 feats (2 regular, 1 epic) in addition to spending every stat point in INT and it requires a caster to have spent 10 epic feats on greater intelligence and it assumes that the caster started with the highest intelligence possible and is playing a subrace with +2 INT bonus. Just working all of this in entirely wrecks a build, but this is the only way to end up with DC47.
Did I miss anything?
I doubt it.
Did I miss anything?
I doubt it.
Why Does death magic have to be the answer for PvP though? Prey on a fighter's lower reflex and will save. Incapacitation spells might work. at level 40, base will save of a pure fighter would be what, 16? 2 feats that's 22. Most likely a fighter hasn't invested that much into wisdom, so say from an item with +wis, throw in +2. From a helm throw in +4 to mind affecting. So maybe they'd have a base of +28 will save. If your throw is in the mid 40s they'd have to roll pretty high to save it. Same goes for reflex saves and damage spells.
Don't forget spellcasters can get autoquicken.
I'm sure it will all be addressed.
Don't forget spellcasters can get autoquicken.
I'm sure it will all be addressed.
IcemanXV made some good points, but he does not address my problem...
Once everyone reaches level 40, explain to me how a caster will go about killing a melee character? Power Word Stun? Power Word Kill? These spells will not even phase (0% chance of success) a melee character despite the fact they have no save. What high level spells (level 8 or 9) do you think will be able to incapacitate a melee character? The missle spells will do some damage becaues they have no save, but will not be near enough damage to kill a melee character. Epic spells alone won't be enough to kill a melee character who is going to immediately charge any hostile caster. A melee character with improved knockdown (that'll be all of them) is going to knock a caster to the ground and kill him in quick fashion. I've mentally thought over every possible type of caster and I believe their days are numbered vs. melee characters. Am I overlooking something obvious? Please prove me wrong because I actually enjoy playing casters.
Once everyone reaches level 40, explain to me how a caster will go about killing a melee character? Power Word Stun? Power Word Kill? These spells will not even phase (0% chance of success) a melee character despite the fact they have no save. What high level spells (level 8 or 9) do you think will be able to incapacitate a melee character? The missle spells will do some damage becaues they have no save, but will not be near enough damage to kill a melee character. Epic spells alone won't be enough to kill a melee character who is going to immediately charge any hostile caster. A melee character with improved knockdown (that'll be all of them) is going to knock a caster to the ground and kill him in quick fashion. I've mentally thought over every possible type of caster and I believe their days are numbered vs. melee characters. Am I overlooking something obvious? Please prove me wrong because I actually enjoy playing casters.
well.... pwk doesnt work unless the victim has less tha 100 life. so knock his life to like 100 and then use it 
other then that.... does bigsby's not work? i herd some fighters complaining about that earlier.. and what about great thunderclap. that has a will save. and its lvl 7 spell. if htey fail will save i think they get stunned. that'll help i think ;p but do you seriously think that casters suck now?. please say something good about casters =] cuz i wanna keep playing my mage ;p
other then that.... does bigsby's not work? i herd some fighters complaining about that earlier.. and what about great thunderclap. that has a will save. and its lvl 7 spell. if htey fail will save i think they get stunned. that'll help i think ;p but do you seriously think that casters suck now?. please say something good about casters =] cuz i wanna keep playing my mage ;p
Bigsby's is a FORT save... if you can beat their FORT save why not just go ahead and use death magic and kill them? At early levels (1-20) I can see both Bigsby's and death magic causing problems for melee characters... but just by leveling from 21 to 40 all melee characters will get +10 to all saves... it's next to impossible for a caster to add +10 to his casting DC during that same period. Also, melee characters can simply choose feats to push their saves even higher...
If you're relying on maximized flame arrow or even the greater missle spells, do you have any idea how many times you'd have to cast those to have a chance of killing a melee character? Average melee guys will likely have 500 or so HP... that's a lot of HP to work down. A melee character would at best just stand there and heal until your spells ran out... at worst, he'd run immediately towards the caster knowing that the caster couldn't not kill him before being dealt a knockdown.
Knockdown is the best death magic "spell" in the game... with attack bonuses around 45-50... it's easy to see why casters are such easy targets for knockdown.
I am repeating my original request... someone... some creative soul... tell me how (in detail) a caster can expect to kill a well built melee build at level 40? Depending on the melee character to roll a 1 does not count.
If you're relying on maximized flame arrow or even the greater missle spells, do you have any idea how many times you'd have to cast those to have a chance of killing a melee character? Average melee guys will likely have 500 or so HP... that's a lot of HP to work down. A melee character would at best just stand there and heal until your spells ran out... at worst, he'd run immediately towards the caster knowing that the caster couldn't not kill him before being dealt a knockdown.
Knockdown is the best death magic "spell" in the game... with attack bonuses around 45-50... it's easy to see why casters are such easy targets for knockdown.
I am repeating my original request... someone... some creative soul... tell me how (in detail) a caster can expect to kill a well built melee build at level 40? Depending on the melee character to roll a 1 does not count.
a fighters base will saves at lvl 40 is 16.
then.. say they have both will save feats=22
then ... i dont know much about items... im thinkin maybe ... +8 from items.... if you can get more... then ill shut up.. but that'll give them 30 will saves... give or take a few depending on the item modifiers (i added in some more to my guess because of the chance that a fighter might get some into wisdom) with great thunderclap.. you can stun them if they fail their will save!!!! yay. and im guessing the dc for great thunderclap around 40. so its a 50/50 chance and even then... they have to make a reflex save or get knockeddown. and fighters reflex save is just as bad as their will saves.. . so unless they got both reflex feats and got items and dex for their reflex saves.. then you have a good chance to knock them down too!! please just agree with me and say casters are fine to play and they can own fighters
then.. say they have both will save feats=22
then ... i dont know much about items... im thinkin maybe ... +8 from items.... if you can get more... then ill shut up.. but that'll give them 30 will saves... give or take a few depending on the item modifiers (i added in some more to my guess because of the chance that a fighter might get some into wisdom) with great thunderclap.. you can stun them if they fail their will save!!!! yay. and im guessing the dc for great thunderclap around 40. so its a 50/50 chance and even then... they have to make a reflex save or get knockeddown. and fighters reflex save is just as bad as their will saves.. . so unless they got both reflex feats and got items and dex for their reflex saves.. then you have a good chance to knock them down too!! please just agree with me and say casters are fine to play and they can own fighters
Agreed, DC falls apart in epic for vanilla NWN.
Will be addressed, and spamming an overpowered-poorly designed-non canon-no save spell won't be the answer
Will be addressed, and spamming an overpowered-poorly designed-non canon-no save spell won't be the answer
Tep wrote:I login and there's a dwarf to kill. You can't ask for much more than that.
Alkapwn wrote:NC has the most amazing melee build there is. Its a friggin unstopable juggernaut of pain.