Shifter fix?

[QuickLightning]

I can show you the char if you wish...and yes, thats 151 AC in improved EX mode (forgot to mention that) so 141 without =/ Monk/Druid/Shifter in dragon form w/ ex mode = 151 AC on this server

[Spura]

what do you mean this server? You can't possibly get more than 70 AC here with IE included.

[Spura]

Feedback is always welcome.

The hard part about changes without a client-side hak is stuff that would be much easier to handle from the GUI. There isn't anything in the module yet to compare it too either, so it might be just working with the horrid feat driven version Bio gave us--that's really the only problem to solve.

For example, it's much easier to have a button that will say Shapeshift: Firebolg than to configure the Elemental Shape ability to change you into one from a conversation and remember what you will change into when you hit Elemental Shape. Alternatively, we could make these abilities out of combat only (Shapeshift, Wildshape...) and shapechange from a list of known forms (conversation).

Hm, why make things hard on yourself and complicate things? Shifter needs the character save fix and monk and then they will be alright useful and fine chars. I probably am not alone when I say I would rather have that than being unable to switch shapes in combat and having ton or very similar shapes. Because I have a gut feeling, that if they started changing shapes you can meld into, they would make them like those summons, a bit of immunity and damage resistance and some elemental cone and bolt attacks. And then we will see constant nerfs, like with the summons in NS3. Leave the shape system be, give monk and fix the save bug.
If devs look on the bright side of this: It is less work

[Epistaxis]

Hi

I do not think the monk class should be included in TC. It cannot be that you need a monk level to play shifter, there must be other ways of building a useful shifter. It is a strange combination druid/monk seen from a RP view and the shifter is not supposed to be as good as a fighter one on one. The shifter gets its strengt from diversity and not by being better to fight than a fighter or a better rouge than the rouge. The shifter can be everything just not as good as a class specialized in a specific area like the tank, rouge or spellcaster.

I like playing a shifter even with the shifter bugs in the current release 1.62 and I am sure all groups will benefit having a shifter in the party. But I agree 100% that the first shapes recieved are almost useless mainly because of the low ac and all the damage reduction when travelling alone. My shifter is level 6 (druid 9) and I have only used the Manticore shape a little to get access to long range spikes and wyrmling (which I by the way likes the most of the lesser shapes) to travel and against invisible enemies (PvP).

What I really need to use the shifter more effective is to have the save bug fixed or at least change the server setup not to save all characters whenever somone rests. Sometimes I only manage to be shifter a few seconds before a save is initiated and other times I manage to complete a whole encounter before it happens. It can be very vital to the shiters survival to have the items merged as even +3 ac is needed allot plus the extra damage dice from the merged weapon to overcome the monsters damage reduction. My character has better ac, attack and damage when unshifted compared to all the lesser shapes before shifter lv 7 (I ignore the merge armor/wepon/item bonus because of the shifter save bug).

[Spura]

Hi

I do not think the monk class should be included in TC. It cannot be that you need a monk level to play shifter, there must be other ways of building a useful shifter. It is a strange combination druid/monk seen from a RP view and the shifter is not supposed to be as good as a fighter one on one. The shifter gets its strengt from diversity and not by being better to fight than a fighter or a better rouge than the rouge. The shifter can be everything just not as good as a class specialized in a specific area like the tank, rouge or spellcaster.

Hi
I am sorry to be dropping in on your line of thought, but my argument was that shifter's AC is abnormally low. This has nothing to do with comparing shifter with other classes like you do, AC is a general character stat and shifter AC(even with +3 from armor or something) is low even for mage standards in melee shapes. Giving shifter monk will NOT make shifter better rogue than rogue(can't use lock picks, open locks and disable traps is not a class skill, no rogue feats like improved evasion, defensive roll, sneak is only 2d6 per epic and 5d6 at lvl 27+(low) in one shape no UMD, ...), will not make shifter better caster than casters(he has no casting ability except some magic missiles and icestorm and stuff. Remeber: All shifter spells use druid levels as caster level so with 5 druid levels shifter spells do like 15 damage per cast and are unable to go past 18 SR. Also all shifter casting shapes are epic and don't do much damage.) and finally monk level will not make shifter better than fighter, it will only make melee shapes have same AC(which I think is only fair), fighters still get tons of AB and damage more while being able to use heal kits and the like. Fighter AB is way higher because BAB is higher and because all armed shapes have only 20 STR(unarmed can more but miss out on weapon melding which makes all shapes have same low AB. Heck if shifter tank shapes are destined to have 10+ AB less than fighter, they should at least have decent AC. And I know devs will make bosses hard for fighters to hit=no hit for shifters.

Saying monk shouldn't be added to TC because monk/druid is weird RP combo is a major kick in the dark since you CAN make monk druid on 3 other factions and I don't think RP has anything to do with it. Like Ragnar's Kin have monk druids even though they live in caves. DRUIDS IN CAVES. Or LA: Druids in the city. And monk ones at that.

[Epistaxis]

Hi

I agree with you Spura that the shifter needs something to make him more useful in close combat compared to the other classes. I just hate the thought that all shifters will be running around as druid/shifter/monk to be able to survive in Neversummer.

Special shifter equipment with added ac bonus and other needed modifiers could be another solution and would make it possible to have other druid/shifter builds.

But I would reconsider having a monk level for my shifter if he is unable to survive on his own even with epic shapes (if it is allowed in TC). When I mentioned the comparison between other classes it was merely to state that the shifter does not have to be a tank but can be fill out other functions in a group as well. With a spellcasting shifter I was thinking about something like a 20 druid 10 shifter where the shifter abilities is added as support to the spellcasting druid.

I really hope that my pure shifter is able to survive and be useful for any group he joins. Would like to have druid 10 and shifter 30

[Epistaxis]

Saying monk shouldn't be added to TC because monk/druid is weird RP combo is a major kick in the dark since you CAN make monk druid on 3 other factions and I don't think RP has anything to do with it. Like Ragnar's Kin have monk druids even though they live in caves. DRUIDS IN CAVES. Or LA: Druids in the city. And monk ones at that.

I totally agree that the druid/monks from RK and LA is weird but this world is for everyone to play as he/she like. It is ok with me that some like a druid/monk but I still prefer a pure druid/shifter even though the added monk would make him allot better.

[Spura]

Hi

I agree with you Spura that the shifter needs something to make him more useful in close combat compared to the other classes. I just hate the thought that all shifters will be running around as druid/shifter/monk to be able to survive in Neversummer.

druid 10 shifter 30 is not a good combo. What taking 30 instead of 19 shifter gains ya is 3 bonus feats, 5 DC or 3 DC on some abilities and 2 more uses of darkness, petrify gaze per shift. That is not much. Also 20 SR will stop your spells 50% of the time and 30 SR 100% of the time.

I just hate the thought that all shifters will be running around as druid/shifter/monk to be able to survive in Neversummer.

Ah I see where this is going. But what do we have now? All shifters are almost the same now anyway and they are weaker than they could be.

Special shifter equipment with added ac bonus and other needed modifiers could be another solution and would make it possible to have other druid/shifter builds.

Bad bad, really bad idea there. I get 5 AC bonus from monk at lvl 6 and 13 AC bonus buffed at lvl 40. Let's say lvl 40 has access to +6 AC items. So if devs wanted to simulate wisdom AC of lvl 40 monk shifter they would have to give him +19 AC item, to get the extra 13 he would get.

Also, you and a lot of people need to understand more than that. If you test damage per round ratio of a naked shifter vs low AC target you get the next numbers:

Dragon 60.3
Azer Chieftain 35.4
Risen Lord 33.2
Epic Commando 31.1
Iron Golem 30.6
Epic Drow Warrior 27.5
Stone Golem 26.4
Epic Drider 22.3
Rakshasa 22.1
Epic Minotaur 22.1
Vampire 20.9
Epic Whipmaster 20.2
Demonflesh Golem 19.8
Drow Warrior 15.5
Death Slaad 12.1
Dire Tiger 11.2
Lizardfolk Whipmaster 11.0
Kobold Commando 10.7
Drider 9.0
Minotaur 9.0
Manticore 4.3
Epic Manticore 4.3
Mindflayer 3.9
Epic Harpy 3.8
Epic Gargoyle 3.8
Medusa 1.9
Basilisk 1.6
Epic Basilisk 1.6
Spectre 1.6
Wyrmling, Red 1.0
Harpy 0.8

Now here everything is fine and dandy. Dragon is best as he should be, being highest epic shape. But this is naked shifter vs naked enemy. What happens when you stick some damage resistance on enemy like even CR 10 ogres have. You get:

Average damage vs. opponent with DR 20/+5

Azer Chieftain 35.4
Risen Lord 33.2
Epic Commando 31.1
Epic Drow Warrior 27.5
Epic Drider 22.3
Rakshasa 22.1
Vampire 20.9
Epic Whipmaster 20.2
Dragon 18.3
Epic Minotaur 4.7
Iron Golem 3.6
Lizardfolk Whipmaster 3.2
Stone Golem 1.7
(Others) 0.0

Now you can see armed shapes lead by a lot. They penetrate +5 DC and a lot of them have +5 weapons.
Lets see what happens when you stick 20/- on them:

The point is, the extra damage dragon and golems get from high STR is easily exceeded by armed shapes when you stick a weapon with 2d6 or more extra damage on it(probably easy to get in epic) and/or by adding DR on monsters(seen a lot of it and I am not even epic). That is why dragons and golems, vampire, tiger, manticore, slaad and the like NEED extra 2 attacks from monk, to even it out. Without monks armed shapes are just way more damaging in combat in NS. So that is another issue besides the low AC.

20 druid 10 shifter?? how is shifter improving druid abilities?

Just what role are you hoping to fill in your party with 10 druid/30 shifter??
Let me remind you, that is a lvl 40 party.
-You can't rez at all.
-You can't heal past serious wounds: requires unshifting+chars at 40 have 400+ HP you won't get far with healing
-You can't do real damage with spells: You will have few call lightning and such vs 1000 HP monster with skyhigh reflex and possibly evasion, Icestorm will do 15.
-Your spells can't get past 30 SR.
-You can't fill the role of support. Druid buffs are not very good. You have some bull str and some death wards that's all.
-You can't fill the role of tank. HP is something medium, but AC is just too low, you also can't use heal kits and items, only potions.
-You can't fill the role of hitter. 3 attacks per round with AB 10 below fighter's, you will also likely be without impr. crit for the shape you are in and without sneaks. You can't be the one to flank and do damage.

As you can see you can't play most roles and some you can play ineffectively.

In conclusion: If you look what the shapes are available and how players choose them in fight you will see that shapes are chosen for their immunities. Since most are melee and AB is not good, TANKING is shifter's most usual role but with low AC you won't be able to do it because even if you will be immune to crit and death effects in golem shape, getting punched, for even 5 damage, every time monsters around you swing, will bring you down quickly(lvl 40 probably means hasted monsters with base number of attacks 5).

About PvP: every time a cleric raids your forest, you will get beaten by divine damage magical damage and divine might divine damage mostly because every attack will hit you without monk. None of you shapes will help you against that. In NS AC matters too much to be ignored.

P.S. Talking about you being good addition to a party: I solo 90% of the time as does the majority of ppl who weren't in guild in NS3.

[Lokey]

Immediately I see at least a few problems in your analysis.

-Dragon formed +1 claw is a Bio feature (screw up).

-Morph into a kobold, get a +7 short sword with a few dice of acid damage--I have no idea why they did this, there's no excuse.

-Druid/Monk is an epic level thing: in the bad old days, you needed to go pure Druid for Greater Wildshape and something I don't remember. For the same reason, there isn't a lot of reason to go pure monk except for more spell resist and AC that looks great on the character sheet but disappears when you go into combat it seems.

How are you playing Druid? They've always been a very strong class in NWN--only cleric is stronger imo. In a party druids are great disablers, back-up nukers, possible front-liners or back-up healers. If you want to solo everything, why play multiplayer? There are so many things that can be done better and easier when you're not a PW.

-----

The moral of the story is that Bio's polymorph functions leave a lot to be desired. There are way too many reasons to throw them out and do a better version from scratch--I'm less interested in a quick fix for that reason.

[IcemanXV]

I think what I notice is these people going through the game saying DAMAGE REDUCTION BLAH BLAH BLAH....

Did you realize the devs created enemies in the same image of PCs? There is damage resistance and immunity. The + on your claws will do little when most enemies do not have damage reduction unless they cast it from a spell. This means that other PCs get their damage lowered the same way. I am a 22nd level fighter/weaponmaster with a halberd and I do 9-12 damage to higher level mobs, because they wear exactly what PCs do. So....I think damage-wise, the shifted forms (as lokey said, a +7 sword with acid???) can be pretty even. I can understand your issues AC wise....but everyone's damage is lowered. You cannot "bypass" resistance or immunity. Only switch damage types and hope the enemy doesn't have that type of damage resist as well.

[Epistaxis]

The major problem is the lower level shapes recieved before level 7 shifter. You will not able to hurt creatures with damage reduction 10 very much with a damage somewhere between 3-14 when shifted . Nearly all weapon as far as I have seen until now has some extra added dices to the weapon which help overcome the monsters damage reduction for other classes than the shifter. I know this problem will be solved partially when the save shifter bug is fixed at least when it comes to the armed shapes.

Summary of the shapes:
Druid9/Sh7 AC:34 HP:105 TH:+17 DAM: 2-14+5 (Schimitar 1-6 +1-8 +2 enchantment)

Minotaur: AC:28 HP:175/150 TH:+19 DAM:2-16+7
Kobold Commando: AC:37 HP:115/105 TH:+21 DAM:2-14+7 (+sneak)
Drow: AC:34 HP:120/90 TH:+20 DAM:2-16+9
Gargoyle: AC:33 HP:185/165 TH:+15 DAM:1-4+4

I think the above stats are allright for a 16 level character and you also get some immunities with the shapes and not to forget the bonus HIPS in kobold shape. Now the save bug causes all the shapes to get -2 AC and the armed shapes looses 1-8 in damage. The unarmed shapes are not able to deliver higher than 10 Dam which makes some of them almost unuseable in combat in NS.

Druid10/shifter10:
Tiger: AC:33 HP: 226/166 TH:+25 DAM:2-8+11
The other two shapes recieved are unable to delliver more than 10 damage on each attack.

Epic shapes:
Druid10/shifter13:
Risen Lord: AC:36 HP:297/237 TH:+28 DAM:3-16+17
Spectre: AC:41 HP:172/132 TH:+20 DAM:1-8+5

Druid10/shifter18:
Epic Kobold Commando: AC:44 TH:+33 DAM:4-22+10 (+sneak)
Epic Drow: AC:43 TH:+32 DAM:4-24+14
Azer Chieftain: AC:37 HP:382/332 TH:+30 DAM:3-18+12
Death Slaath: AC:43 TH:+26 DAM:3-18+8
Rakshasa: AC:40 TH:+29 DAM:3-24+11

Now all the above stats are including items merges + buffs with the equipment my 15 level character has found until now. I am sure better equipment will raise the AC a little and improve the damage for the armed shapes. I have not played any other epic character and have no comparison with the above stats to tell whether they are good or bad.

All the greater shapes like golem and dragon are recieved very late and has been left out.

If you decide to travel in a group with a priest or mage they might be persuaded to cast a buff or two on your character to improve the AC and attack even more. I believe the shifter is very capable to survive in a group when level 7 shapes are recieved and a few extra buffs from the groups spell casters would make him deadly in combat IMHO.

[Epistaxis]

[quote="IcemanXV"]I think what I notice is these people going through the game saying DAMAGE REDUCTION BLAH BLAH BLAH....
[quote]

We were merely discussing the useability of the different shapes and you must agree that the unarmed shapes whom do not merge weapon stats is almost useless in combat versus any monster with damage immunity 10 or higher. Now this is not nescessary a bad thing as the shifter also has allot of armed shapes to choose from. The shifter has to know its enemies strengts and weakness before choosing the shape for the encounter.

[Spura]

Morph into a kobold, get a +7 short sword with a few dice of acid damage--I have no idea why they did this, there's no excuse.

It is +6 sword and that is epic kobold. Why would they need excuse? +6 sword with 2d4 acid for a lvl 27+. Doesn-t seem very powerful. I like it because +6 helps low AB a lot.

Dragon formed +1 claw is a Bio feature (screw up).

Even if they gave dragon +20 claws, he would still do little damage because you gave your monsters x/- damage resistance and damage immunity. That is also why armed shapes are superior, they all do elemental damage which is very neat vs damage resistance.

Druid/Monk is an epic level thing: in the bad old days, you needed to go pure Druid for Greater Wildshape and something I don't remember. For the same reason, there isn't a lot of reason to go pure monk except for more spell resist and AC that looks great on the character sheet but disappears when you go into combat it seems.

Actually you didn't need anything, but when making shapeshifting char before shifter, your best bet was a monk level with greater wildshape and elemental shape.

Be back shortly

[IcemanXV]

We were merely discussing the useability of the different shapes and you must agree that the unarmed shapes whom do not merge weapon stats is almost useless in combat versus any monster with damage immunity 10 or higher. Now this is not nescessary a bad thing as the shifter also has allot of armed shapes to choose from. The shifter has to know its enemies strengts and weakness before choosing the shape for the encounter.

I am not arguing the viability of shifter forms. They obviously need some work.

I just wanted to clarify the difference between damage immunity, resistance, and reduction.

Reduction = +3/soak 10. This means +2 weapons and lower deal 10 less physical damage.

Immunity = 20% slashing immunity. Any slashing weapon hitting this target has that % damage shaved off and is left with the remaining. Someone criticals for 100. 20% immunity leaves you with 80. This is the best way to reduce damage without hurting low strength builds. Each build does 20% less damage.

Resistance = 10/-. This means 10 damage is removed after the application of immunities and reduction.

Now I agree some shifter forms can't get past damage RESIST, but damage REDUCTION is a different story. Also, most mobs that have damage resist and immunity are usually of the same type. Bludgeoning is useless versus Tree smashers. They probably have 20-25% immunity and 10/- Resist. I use a warhammer and do 20 damage. 25% = 5 damage. 15-10/- is 5. I do 5 damage. Pull out a piercing weapon....works wonders.

So I think what is required is to make the shifter forms with several damage types. Some using fists (bludgeon), swords (slashing, piercing for shortswords), and claws (slash/pierce combo).

With these diverse forms , you'll have a better way to damage enemies.

Also, did I mention my halberd guy does 9-15 damage on drow guards? They have immunity to my elemental and physical as well as slashing resist. I Pull out a heavy flail and whomp them for 20-25 per hit and 50+ crit. Same should be for the shifter shapes (once implemented).

[Epistaxis]

My mistake, I was reffering to damage resistance and not damage immunity

I think I will have to try a few different shapes for each creature with damage immunity. The drider has piercing attack with the spear, the Manticore has piercing with the tail spikes and the kobold with its short sword.

I really look forward to try out the level 7 shifter forms as I am only sh 6 at the moment waiting for server 4 to come online again.

The tree-smasher I encountered last time was immune to my Manticores spikes, alle zeros floating around over the giants head. The drider (without merged weapons due to shifter bug) was not able to scratch him either. Luckilly I was travelling with a weaponmaster whom was at least able to do 1-4 points of damage on each attack

If the claws/bite are both slash and pierce are they then resisted if the creature has 10 slash resist and none pierce resist?