Experience and Magic

Post your tips, ideas for improvements, requests for new features, etc. here
RumblingSky
Noob
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:11 am
Contact:

Experience and Magic

Post by RumblingSky »

Okay.. as if I need more reasons for people not to like me.. :shock:

I personally believe characters progress too fast. Since the recent server problems, I've been playing elsewhere while I wait for things to get fixed. The other server I'm playing on has the experience set for logevity of interest and character life. I don't know for certain what the scale is, but I know I was getting around 3 xp per rat at level 1. It took me quite a few hours to get to level 2 (they also generally have fewer critters, which I don't necessarily agree with). I played today and ended up making around 800 xp in 3 or so hours of just straight combat playing. I felt this was near perfect (maybe a LITTLE slow) and I know I will enjoy it more in a month when I still have not maxed out my character and it is still enjoyable to play.

Keep in mind, I don't see any reason in playing once you've maxed out your character unless all you do is roleplay.. even PvPing with people your level gets boring when you're all maxed out and have little variation.

Basically.. I guess I'm saying I would personally like to see level advancement to be a little slower.. maybe half of what it is now.

And yes, I promised to piss everyone off mentioning Magic in the subject.. okay.. here goes..

I want the magic items I find to be special and important.. I think you're giving away too much.. especially when I can find a +3 swordsman's bracer on a fire beetle. Maybe one in every.. I dunno.. 30.. maybe 50 kills should drop something of importance..

Just some thoughts on keeping things interesting and challanging.. Don't hate me cause I'm honest.. just hate me. :wink:
-= Rovilea Windrome =-

"Common sense is neither commnon, nor a sense."

http://rumblingmedia.beyondapoc.net

Knightwing4
Looking for group
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:03 am

Post by Knightwing4 »

one of NS's oldest concepts involves the idea to explore your character's growth. Meaning in other words, the idea behind the current system, which is the system NS has had for years, is to create a character that you can lvl, explore, delve into his strengths and weaknesses, then, when you reach that point when there's little or nothing left to explore of your char (generally, that's 1-2 weeks for most players, when i say 1-2 weeks, i am referring to time spent lvling, not RP/buying/etc.), you create a new character, and the process starts all over again.

Thus is why those places that have the uber slow lvling system tend to drive away all but the most major RPers, most people (like me) can RP for a while, but the character gets... i don't know... old... after a month or 2 of your life has been spent growing him, what, 5 levels? If you're a sorc, and you've just spent 2 months of your life and just now getting fireball...

OT: The thing that most ticks me off on those types of servers is when you spend weeks of lvling, and you turn around, and then something weird like a dragon spawns in the middle of a plains, and *poof* there goes 2 RL weeks of your life.

Qui
Looking for group
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:35 pm
Contact:

Post by Qui »

ITs never gonna happen Rumble.. the NS community as long as I've known it.... over a year now.. Has always had a pretty fast lvling sytem.. I could blabber baout play types and what not but like Knightwing said.. there is a certain type of gamer it appeals to.. those gamers that cant handle the 'slowness' of the RP servers.. and it fills its niche.. i doubt you could get many people to rally behind your cause.. and since ive been around NS (maybe im wrong here..) i've noticed the devs major decision making power is where they see the community going, both on forums (those of us who are vocal) and in game..
"If you are 20 and not yet a communist you lack heart, If you are 30 and you are still a communist you lack rationality" ~ dont remember.

User avatar
IcemanXV
Newbie Helper
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 10:32 pm
Location: MI
Contact:

Post by IcemanXV »

I quite simply and frankly do not have the time to level extremely slow. As said above I am not waiting 3 weeks to get to get call lightning so I can stop killing bugs. There is no incentive for casters, as they start off extraordinarily weak, and do not wish to stay that way for the better part of a month. Sure, for people with no lives, leveling slow and admiring the accomplishment later is great. For the rest of us, we level at a normal pace. For those who want more challenge, play an ECL +2 or 3 race.

There's a difference between hard-earned wealth and power and repetition. The scenario you described is repetition. As far as Item drop rates.....My whole first day (4-5 hours of playing) I did not encounter one enemy with a trove of items. It is completely random, as with DnD.

ATI
Spamalot
Posts: 548
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2003 12:59 am
Location: Good Ol' Utah (Hic!)

Post by ATI »

And on top of that, there aren't monumentally awesome items that drop off of fire beetles, or any of the other low lvl monsters.... If you look at the DnD core rulebooks for 3.0 or 3.5, the items are pretty much in line, and in some cases underpowered, when compared to an average PnP campaign.

If you don't like this styel of play, NEVER, go to NS3, let me tell you, its fast, furious, and I can get a lvl 30 in probably two days, with gleeming armor in one hour. NS4 is a real scale back from NS3's Ultra Power Gaming days.

And quite frankly, most the community likes the scale back in ultimo awesome-o power that was always rampant in NS3. Sure all the vets have nostalgia every once and a while to have YDB (really awesome sword from NS3) but ultimately NS4 has fondled a more community feel to the game.

Besides, what is the trade-off to leveling slower, with lamer weapons? Here is one thing EVERY game developer should understand as LAW: Players want to see bangs, flashes, whistles, and want the aura of coolness to permeate their characters. They want to fight to achieve that coolness, and struggle to have to maintain that coolness. If the characters don't feel like they are achieving this fast enough, they quickly become disenfranchized and stop playing the game.

That's simple. Although there are niche people that like to lvl slowly and so forth, that isn't the style of most PC games. Things are fast, furious, and the best games make up with depth, and storyline.

The things you are asking for are found more in PnP versions of the DnD universe, not in PC games.

Besides, I doubt you've reached the pinacle of playing this game, what char lvl are yOu? Im lvl 20, and I find lots of joy doing things in teh game. I have people that I help out, I defend my city, I talk to people, do some jousting once and a while, get items and lvl every now and then, and I still find this game fun.

I actually play at times, where I don't fight a single thing at all, just chat and help out new players with getting items, and finding things. I don't see how changing the exp ranges, or the magic content will solve this.

Also, I think another issue is that smart builds lvl faster than stupidly built characters.... and that upsets some people. For example, my Animal/Haste Cleric that i got to lvl 17 in two days. Now, that's hard to do on this server....most would call it powerlvling. What's wrong with this style though? I saw people rampaging NC and TC, so I built a character that, frankly, does rather well in PvP, and does a lot to add some RP elements to an unfinished game. Other people build their chars much the same way. Should this thinking be discouraged? no. Why? Because, out of the necessity of teh game, some will make strong characters, others will make bad characters. It took me 20 cleric builds from both NS3, NS4, and in my own custom mod, to figure out how to tool a cleric for perfect all round performance....now I'm being told that I should slow down my lvling and get less magic items.... thats not really fair, and its also not going to add to character development.

Also, lvling fast helps characters understand whe nthey have made a mistake in their character build. If it takes 5 days to get to lvl 5 with your character, you've got to go back to the drawing boards and rethink your char design. Simple as that. Making it so taht a person has to go LONGER to figure out their char design is no good, is simply enfuriating.

Finally, some may enjoy playing weeks just to hit lvl 2. But the vast majority of PC's would rather spend their time doing something more productive with their lives than spend 24 hours of their life killing rats, jut to hit lvl 2 in a month. I think we all know what you are trying to say, this game is fast paced, and you want it slowed down....but you're solving the problem is all wrong, you need to attack the root of the problem, and as of yet, fast paced gaming isn't a problem at all. Get to the root of this issue and explain to the community what an all ecompassing solution would be, because people are probably not desiring your solution, as of yet.

:D
I've tried fire, i've tried faith, and i've tried force, all I have left is hope.

RumblingSky
Noob
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:11 am
Contact:

Post by RumblingSky »

Wow.. this is all fantastic and refreshing to see. I'm still sort of used to the 12 year old mentality and flames. I have to say this was all very well put, guys.

And you're right, I am still very new to NS and I know I have a lot more things to explore and see for myself. That's why I don't hide the fact that I am a newb here. For some time to come most of my comments will be centered around an overall gaming experince elsewhere. In fact, the main reason I used the other NWN server as an example is simple because it's NWN and comparable as opposed to an entirely different game.

I am a person who loves to debate and I am having a very hard time debating any of these comments which is a great sign. Now, I expect I would have loved NS3 for a month or so. In fact, I did start a character there once when there was only 28 / 30 people on the server the one time I've seen that. LOL. The only reason I didn't continue was simply that I didn't want to get my NS3 knowledge crossed with my NS4 being totally new around here.

I will totally cave in on the experience comments because I know you guys are right. It's fun for me to take a good solid day.. maybe two to gain a level, but it's also around what.. 1,000.. then 2,000 xp. After the 5 or so hours of playing over 2 days I was definately ready for that level and when I earned it, I was very thankful for it. But when I consider having to get 20,000.. 50,0000.. 80,000.. yeah, I can see where that would become a serious pain in the butt.

My opinion of magic items.. I don't know. Again, I do see where you guys are coming from and at this point it would be wise on my part to take this more in the direction of a general discussion rather than one aimed at NS4.. Again, I don't know what the drops are like in the mid to high levels. I also do not know what restrictions are in place based on the game itself.. but I was thinking it would be interesting if the next to best items in the game were player made using some very rare components and the absolute best stuff would possible be unique or extremely rare and possibly from live run quests.

Anyway, I apologize for placing this post in this particular forum when it should've been more of a general topic. I have enjoyed reading these points of view, however.. especially being a new player here. It gives me some perspective on the cool things to come. :wink:
-= Rovilea Windrome =-

"Common sense is neither commnon, nor a sense."

http://rumblingmedia.beyondapoc.net

RumblingSky
Noob
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:11 am
Contact:

Post by RumblingSky »

ATI wrote: I think we all know what you are trying to say, this game is fast paced, and you want it slowed down....but you're solving the problem is all wrong, you need to attack the root of the problem, and as of yet, fast paced gaming isn't a problem at all. Get to the root of this issue and explain to the community what an all ecompassing solution would be, because people are probably not desiring your solution, as of yet.

:D
Oh, and I thought I'd single this out as a great quote and if I do think of something.. especially something that isn't as aggressive as my previous suggestion.. I'll make sure to post about it. Thanks for the encouragment, though. That's also a refreshing change of pace.
-= Rovilea Windrome =-

"Common sense is neither commnon, nor a sense."

http://rumblingmedia.beyondapoc.net

Knightwing4
Looking for group
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:03 am

Post by Knightwing4 »

RumblingSky wrote:Wow.. this is all fantastic and refreshing to see. I'm still sort of used to the 12 year old mentality and flames. I have to say this was all very well put, guys.

And you're right, I am still very new to NS and I know I have a lot more things to explore and see for myself. That's why I don't hide the fact that I am a newb here. For some time to come most of my comments will be centered around an overall gaming experince elsewhere. In fact, the main reason I used the other NWN server as an example is simple because it's NWN and comparable as opposed to an entirely different game.

I am a person who loves to debate and I am having a very hard time debating any of these comments which is a great sign. Now, I expect I would have loved NS3 for a month or so. In fact, I did start a character there once when there was only 28 / 30 people on the server the one time I've seen that. LOL. The only reason I didn't continue was simply that I didn't want to get my NS3 knowledge crossed with my NS4 being totally new around here.

I will totally cave in on the experience comments because I know you guys are right. It's fun for me to take a good solid day.. maybe two to gain a level, but it's also around what.. 1,000.. then 2,000 xp. After the 5 or so hours of playing over 2 days I was definately ready for that level and when I earned it, I was very thankful for it. But when I consider having to get 20,000.. 50,0000.. 80,000.. yeah, I can see where that would become a serious pain in the butt.

My opinion of magic items.. I don't know. Again, I do see where you guys are coming from and at this point it would be wise on my part to take this more in the direction of a general discussion rather than one aimed at NS4.. Again, I don't know what the drops are like in the mid to high levels. I also do not know what restrictions are in place based on the game itself.. but I was thinking it would be interesting if the next to best items in the game were player made using some very rare components and the absolute best stuff would possible be unique or extremely rare and possibly from live run quests.

Anyway, I apologize for placing this post in this particular forum when it should've been more of a general topic. I have enjoyed reading these points of view, however.. especially being a new player here. It gives me some perspective on the cool things to come. :wink:
Hehe, the devs have promised much, i personally can't wait to see what comes. As for the proper forum, i personally don't mind an "agressive suggestion" (I do them all the time, such as my dragon breath post, though i'd really really like to see it beefed), besides, posts that are agressive always end with both sides being better for it (well... almost always :P)

So, don't be afraid to post your ideas/changes/suggestions :) one of the most enjoyable aspects of NS is that it's malleable, instead of other servers where the DMs made their module, and then they run for the hills (*Cough* BoW *Cough*)

Lokey
-2 Penalty in Daylight
Posts: 3094
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:49 pm
Contact:

Post by Lokey »

We can't wait to see what comes either.

-----

Remember, we build for what we want to play as well--I have no interest in experience treadmill or scour the realm for that specific piece of copper to craft your first armor. Experience rewards are high compared to many NWN modules--the reason for that is crunching monsters for experience isn't how I want to spend 98% of my game time. The fact that many are playing only to crunch monsters and are pleased with the rapid progression is fine too.

By the way, we still see NWN cleric as rediculously overpowered :x and that's not going to be an easy thing to rework.
Tep wrote:I login and there's a dwarf to kill. You can't ask for much more than that.
Alkapwn wrote:NC has the most amazing melee build there is. Its a friggin unstopable juggernaut of pain.

User avatar
IcemanXV
Newbie Helper
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 10:32 pm
Location: MI
Contact:

Post by IcemanXV »

Item power wise, I still think that everything is pretty even. Items are uniform, which I like. My main beef with the OC is that things are completely random. I would have a hard time even finding a normal two bladed sword, then i searched a chest and WHAM a +3 1d6 fire two bladed sword on the first level of undermountain.

The uniformity helps with making EACH build unique and above all...VIABLE. Instead of just making every monster immune to the strong spells and skills, they make appropriate changes to the skill rolls, saves, and even the spells themselves to make sure that they aren't restricting half of a character's arsenal. Builds that SUCKED on NS3 might shine here. Your prevailance in combat is based off of your knowledge, skill distribution, character build, choice in spells, and weapons.

The freedom that these universal uniform items give is the ability to virtually make ANY character you want, and make him viable. No more massive immunities, characters like druids are actually useful now. Will saves are how they should be, so i can actually use spells like stonehold. I can clobber town guards with it....but it's not overpowered, because the guards will take advantage of my stupid mistakes, and I pay for it.

I wouldn't say the magic is too high or too low, because the point is, if you're unprepared, you're going to get clobbered. The game is a challenge, and that's exactly what it should be. :)

RumblingSky
Noob
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:11 am
Contact:

Post by RumblingSky »

Well, out of curiosity, how do the item drops work? I mean, certainly there are specific items specific mobs can be programmed to drop. For random encounters and random drops.. I don't know.. are their levels for the drops? For instance, a level 1 drop would drop any number of items entered into it and any creature assigened a level 1 drop would randomly drop something from that list? (wow.. that's a poorly written question, but I'm sure you get the idea.. lol).

I do think, if it were possible without being too cumbersome of a task, to limit item drops to something that makes sense for the mob. While it's nice at low levels, it seems odd to me that one might find 56 gold pieces on the corpse of a rat (an actual example). A gem, perhaps worth 56 gold pieces, that the rat had swallowed would be reasonable. Of course, it could just drop the gold in an effort to remove the step of having to take the gem to a store to sell it also saving us from having to take up more inventory space (something I found a nuisance in the standard single player campaign).
-= Rovilea Windrome =-

"Common sense is neither commnon, nor a sense."

http://rumblingmedia.beyondapoc.net

User avatar
IcemanXV
Newbie Helper
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 10:32 pm
Location: MI
Contact:

Post by IcemanXV »

As far as I know it works just like PnP does.

Once a monster is killed there is a roll to see if it drops loot.

Then it is rolled to see how much loot they drop, could be from 1 item to many. Each item is then rolled to see what type of item it is, and then again to see what level of item it is. Each enemy has a certain set of item types and levels they can drop. Also randomly added to that list are the items that those enemies use. IE a vampire monk may drop his monk outfit 1/10 times that a vampire monk could drop loot. If he could only drop loot 1/10 kills, then you effectively would have a 1/100 chance to find a vampire monk robe.

(Disclaimer: this is just how I've seen it done in similar mods and mods that I have coded. I cannot guarantee my accuracy as the NS dev team has many custom ways of handling things.)

LadyCheron
Developer
Posts: 264
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Central Illinois - Flatland

Post by LadyCheron »

RumblingSky wrote:Well, out of curiosity, how do the item drops work? I mean, certainly there are specific items specific mobs can be programmed to drop. For random encounters and random drops.. I don't know.. are their levels for the drops? For instance, a level 1 drop would drop any number of items entered into it and any creature assigened a level 1 drop would randomly drop something from that list? (wow.. that's a poorly written question, but I'm sure you get the idea.. lol).
That is indeed part of it. You won't find a goblin snotslinger with a +3 sword, because that's a level 9+ item. Creatures can drop items of up to their level. Certain named NPCs have pre-programmed items that they drop a certain percentage of the time - usually their armour, weapon, or shield. They also have lower level items (potions, heal kits, etc) which they drop. Those are randomly generated.
RumblingSky wrote: I do think, if it were possible without being too cumbersome of a task, to limit item drops to something that makes sense for the mob. While it's nice at low levels, it seems odd to me that one might find 56 gold pieces on the corpse of a rat (an actual example). A gem, perhaps worth 56 gold pieces, that the rat had swallowed would be reasonable. Of course, it could just drop the gold in an effort to remove the step of having to take the gem to a store to sell it also saving us from having to take up more inventory space (something I found a nuisance in the standard single player campaign).
There has been some effort in this already. Creatures with no pockets / hands drop gold mostly. (At one point, wolves dropped skins, which had to be sold. But they were bulky and heavy and the devs decided to change it to gold. Remember the entrance to the Planes in NS3? All of the bags of throwing axes that used to accumulate? Things no one wanted to pick up and carry out because they weighed too much and weren't worth much - not good for the server.)

Humanoids drop more varied items. NPCs have the largest variety stuff as a rule. You won't see a fire beetle drop a suit of chainmail. The Devs also decided that rather than have each rat drop 3d10 GP, that about 30% of the rats would drop 9d10 GP (numbers are estimates). Again, this is to reduce the load on the server - easier to track one bag than 4. It's also assumed that the adventurer has taken a minute to look through the nest of old rags that the rat was sitting on. (Old rags? Wait...that was FitzGrond's best tunic. Come to think of it, I haven't seen him around lately.)

Apologies for the length of this reply - but I hope it helps give you a glimpse of what has already been tested and implemented. And I'm betting that the loot drop system is not at it's final stage yet - we're still in Beta, and that means that things can and will change.
Berronar Truesilver, The Revered Mother
Domains: Good, Healing, Law, Protection

Image

Lokey
-2 Penalty in Daylight
Posts: 3094
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:49 pm
Contact:

Post by Lokey »

Good guesswork all, that's pretty close to what we're doing.

One correction: Loot is generated on spawn and opposed to on death--if some bandit has a shinier sword than his buds he'll use it.
Tep wrote:I login and there's a dwarf to kill. You can't ask for much more than that.
Alkapwn wrote:NC has the most amazing melee build there is. Its a friggin unstopable juggernaut of pain.

User avatar
IcemanXV
Newbie Helper
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 10:32 pm
Location: MI
Contact:

Post by IcemanXV »

Lokey wrote:Good guesswork all, that's pretty close to what we're doing.

One correction: Loot is generated on spawn and opposed to on death--if some bandit has a shinier sword than his buds he'll use it.
Durr, yeah. Shoulda figured it was onSpawn. At the low levels its easier to spot these enemies because once in a while you'll see them throw a tanglefoot bag, use a potion of bless, heal themselves, etc.

For the enemies that drop their own items: Do you just make several versions of an NPC (edit copy) and then just change around which parts of their items are droppable, then throw them all into the same encounter? So like 8 of them with nothing droppable then 2 of them with maybe sword and shield and the other sword and armor.

Locked

Return to “NS4 Ideas and Suggestions”