Module Design Clarification

Alexiagold · Post by **Alexiagold** » Sat May 22, 2004 3:44 pm

Is this a PvP module or not? I've had all kinds of stuff done to me, been called a griefer, had people try and get me banned/vault wiped. All this because I followed the original module design, Full PvP vs hostile factions.

Is this a Faction vs Faction Module? I've been yelled at by DMs/Devs/Players for defending my faction, attacking other factions, raiding, etc. I thought the purpose was to raid factions, to attack hostile players, to defend my realm.

Is this a RP server only? So far most if not all "PG" things have either been nerfed, removed, or proposed to be removed. Ironically any form of RP that results from following the module design (Factions) and thus PvP is considered griefing by many players, some DMs, and at least one developer.

Thus is NS4 even a RP server? I offered to let a low level player live once in exchange for information or spell scrolls, and they refused, I killed them. Turns out that was a DM who then decided to use their DM powers against me. How is that RP? Another post exists right now where someone requested information from a hostile player, who then hid behind the lowbie killing rule, how is that RP? Bacon proceeded to claim that any RP that allows killing isn't RP, its griefing. Bacon is not alone in making this claim.

Is this a fighter only PvM server? Fighters are much better in PvM now than casters, with clerics counting as a self-buffing fighter. In PvP a high saving throw fighter easily beats a caster. I’d bet if you add rest restrictions now, you’d see the end of all arcane casters, period. I realize why arcane casters were nerfed, but that study of them had an “N” of one, not something sufficient to generalize to the entire module and player base.

I realize this is beta, but where is the module going? I'm rather upset over the constant harassment (both verbal and "physical" from DMs/Players) simply because I'm following the original module design, namely a PG/RP hybrid build on faction vs faction PvP. I've been harassed for Power Gaming, (what ever that is), I've been harassed for Role Playing, (whatever that is), and for killing hostile faction players/raiding factions. I've been labeled a griefer for simply following the module's design and killing hostile players. I've been harassed for NOT parting with hostile players. I guess all I’m asking for is a rough idea or statement as to what exactly NS4 is about, and where it is intending to go now? I want to help NS4 be as good as it can, but without understanding where its headed anymore, I simply cannot give any good suggestions.

For example, if NS4 wants to remain PvP/FvF, but avoid the “griefing” of lowbies being killed. Why not make, like Dark Age of Camelot, areas for each faction where players can achieve a reasonable level, but where nothing good drops. Yet make this area un-enterable by anyone not in that faction. DAoC had 3 “realms” where you could level in peace, but also had 3 “realms” where it was free for all open RvR combat, with objectives (like taking castles) but also things like special dungeons and gear in those areas open to PvP. This is what I thought NS4 would be like from my early readings about it.

Perhaps the only real problem lies in the difficulty most people are having changing mind sets from a basically no pvp server (ns3) to a full PvP server where the story itself revolves around Faction conflict. I constantly see posts where someone says its "rude" or bad manners to kill a hostile player, simply becasue they are hostile. In DAoC you couldn't party with, talk to, or otherwise interact with a hostile player, except to kill or be killed. No one complained, no one bitched that was griefing, no one said it was bad manners. Again I ask, if the purpose of NS4 was factions, factions at war, then why can't you kill on sight ALL hostile players?

AndrewCarr · Post by **AndrewCarr** » Sat May 22, 2004 4:08 pm

I think by trying to go with a mix of pvp and a mix of protection for low lvls, we're screwing up the module. I'd be fine with your suggestion of low lvl areas, or ones like in Shadowbane where you could hit lvl10 and then go off to the "real" world. This gives everyone a chance to be protected so they can live to an extent, but it doesn't protect them through their entire life.
But by trying to make complicated rules for people so that they can be safe from "griefing" we're allowing other people to stretch the line and call anything griefing, hurting what should be a pvp module. And then partying with hostiles also teaches people not to expect to fight every enemy they see, and this leads to boring city raids that turn into xp farms and people saying "Good on ya, hello" to all the people they pass on the road, hostile or not.
And the roleplaying. If anyone says it's bad roleplaying to kill enemies... Then wow. I've seen maybe two people roleplay for about a total of 5 minutes on this module, most recently being a lvl1 last night who was asking for advice. So i'd welcome any sort of roleplaying that brings immersiveness rather than a ban on "bad" roleplaying that will just cause people to expect to be spared, to be helped by hostiles.

So what i'm saying is that if most hostiles seen were kos'd, then we wouldn't get many cases of lvl5's getting slaughtered in enemy territory, because they wouldn't be there in the first place, with the defender's being allowed to actually defend their land. And at the same time, we wouldn't have cases of "hey killed me accidently/purposely while killing our guards, wtf!?" because the low lvls would figure out, "hey, i don't have to stand in the city square while people are killing everything in sight." It's really really annoying to me that low lvls from one land can xp with low lvls in another, and somehow this is all "ok," while if a high lvl cleans house where a low lvl faction member has decided not to, they're "evil metagaming bastards." It's also really annoying to me that I can't killing the enemy in their own town when I invade because they con effortless(even though some can still cast death spells, disable me, or disarm me) while they can buff, heal, and help the guards.

So if people want faction wars, they should expect to die, and to kill. If people don't want xp loss for pvp, then they shouldn't play a planar race if they suck at pvp, and they shouldn't logout at the very end of a fight, or wait twenty minutes so they can be rez'd when they're 2 areas from their bind pount.

I mean if our "ideal" pvp can work in Shadowbane, where there were plenty more a'holes and less enforcement, with no protection but similarly crappy guards after lvl10, then I'm sure it can work here.

[Edit:] I stand corrected on one point.

"as for aasimars taking a penalty in pvp, they dont anymore, im aasimar and have been killed countless times in pvp with no penalty, so thats no longer a problem "

From

Here

Throst54 · Post by **Throst54** » Sat May 22, 2004 4:35 pm

BLAH

just let us play, axon i reccomend just making a new account... every1 seems to be hellbent on the idea that you are thier antithesis.

people are still afraid of PvP for some reason.... tehre arent enuff bund points or something... it hurts thier pride perhaps...

drop the egos ppl...

this is just getting ridiculous.

why is so much effort having to be put into this?

AndrewCarr · Post by **AndrewCarr** » Sat May 22, 2004 4:40 pm

Oh, and for clarification for others. The reason I like pvp and push for it, and dislike games without it, is that it's fun. Not because I get my jollies off by ruining people's fun, or because I can, I like it because it's interesting, I lose, it's dynamic, and it takes thought. It's also rewarding, because I like to see things succeed, and then I can figure out problems with things that don't.

BaconStrip · Post by **BaconStrip** » Sat May 22, 2004 4:43 pm

Somewhere where higher levels can't go and newbies can level is a great idea. Problem is that we don't have it, and you have to alter your "role-playing" (in quotes because I highly doubt you are RPing so much as just being a jack*ss). I'm high level enough now to where I could probably beat a few people and invisbility/expeditious retreat from the rest, but it's annoying to get creamed by a high level player when you are level 1 and doing sewer runs to level your character.

Common sense would say if you grief newbies (even if it is "in character"), you are going to have a massive flight of players off your mod out of sheer frustration. I doubt the DEVs want that, even though you defenders of abusive PvP would call these players "whiners" and write them off as such. Newbies are the future of the mod. People quit every day for their own reasons, and its critical to the mod's continued existance and popularity that new players join every day, and stick with it. Whatever vision PvPers have for this mod, the REALITY of it is that behind every newbie you kill, there are real players with varying degrees of how much abuse they are willing to take. It might not matter to you, but it matters to them and the future of the mod.

How many servers out there have 0/30 or 2/45? And would you want to play on one of them? Think about it next time you grief.

AndrewCarr · Post by **AndrewCarr** » Sat May 22, 2004 4:47 pm

So be polite, courteous, and respectful when you kill. Good point, and i think doing that will go a long way to having people enjoy the game. No one likes losing that i know of, but if their "enemy" says, "hey, almost had me" or "maybe you shouldn't have used that, or done this.." then it'll help them like the playerbase, and experience more. Good karma too

BaconStrip · Post by **BaconStrip** » Sat May 22, 2004 4:51 pm

AndrewCarr wrote:Oh, and for clarification for others. The reason I like pvp and push for it, and dislike games without it, is that it's fun. Not because I get my jollies off by ruining people's fun, or because I can, I like it because it's interesting, I lose, it's dynamic, and it takes thought. It's also rewarding, because I like to see things succeed, and then I can figure out problems with things that don't.

Good that you clarified that, though I find it hard to believe. Many servers out there have PvP systems in place, and still manage to protect new players from being abused by higher levels. But you promote full PvP, without any protection, and it doesn't take a detective to figure out your motives. If you had no intention of attacking lower level characters, then it would be fair to say you wouldn't be so avidly for the concept and rule in the first place. People who truly like PvP want fights that are evenly matched, but those like yourself that promote rules that fail to protect newbies do so because you get your "jollies" off killing them without reprocutions.

BaconStrip · Post by **BaconStrip** » Sat May 22, 2004 4:55 pm

AndrewCarr wrote:So be polite, courteous, and respectful when you kill. Good point, and i think doing that will go a long way to having people enjoy the game. No one likes losing that i know of, but if their "enemy" says, "hey, almost had me" or "maybe you shouldn't have used that, or done this.." then it'll help them like the playerbase, and experience more. Good karma too

How does a level 2 say to a level 18 that just killed him "hey, good one!! Your lucky I didn't get off my 2d4 burning hands or you would be the one needing the rez....lol"?

AndrewCarr · Post by **AndrewCarr** » Sat May 22, 2004 4:57 pm

Bacon, you have it opposite. The winner should be giving advice, as they obviously did something better or have advice to give.

And for your second mistake, I did propose protection for newbies. Up to lvl10, or small levelling areas like axon proposed.

And here's something else:

"If you had no intention of attacking lower level characters, then it would be fair to say you wouldn't be so avidly for the concept and rule in the first place."

I do plan on attacking lower lvls, i never said i didn't. After all, i'm not letting disgusting dwarves and half-orcs pollute my forests, or magic wielders harm it with their taint. Pure balance will never exist, and I don't care if it does. it also lets people kill me when i'm in the middle of a tough fight, or resting and vice versa.

BaconStrip · Post by **BaconStrip** » Sat May 22, 2004 5:05 pm

AndrewCarr wrote:Bacon, you have it opposite. The winner should be giving advice, as they obviously did something better or have advice to give.

And for your second mistake, I did propose protection for newbies. Up to lvl10, or small levelling areas like axon proposed.

And here's something else:

"If you had no intention of attacking lower level characters, then it would be fair to say you wouldn't be so avidly for the concept and rule in the first place."

I do plan on attacking lower lvls, i never said i didn't. After all, i'm not letting disgusting dwarves and half-orcs pollute my forests, or magic wielders harm it with their taint. Pure balance will never exist, and I don't care if it does. it also lets people kill me when i'm in the middle of a tough fight, or resting and vice versa.

First, what would kind of advice would the level 18 give to the level 2? "Gain some levels...." Likely response: "Ya [insert curse word], I was trying to gain levels until you came down in the sewers and pked me and the rest of my party, thx...".

Second, as I said, we don't have an area where newbies can level till 10 as of yet, so we need some sort of enforced anti-griefing rules in place to keep the newbies playing. You promote full pvp with the current maps and scripts we have in place, and I'm questioning your reasoning behind doing so.

AndrewCarr · Post by **AndrewCarr** » Sat May 22, 2004 5:13 pm

The lvl 18 could give them advise on their builds, as this module is significantly different from others item wise and spellwise.
Then they could suggest different xp areas for them to do, and what to use vs different mobs.

And sure, have a simple rule or two against griefing ppl at their respawn point or something, but overzealous rules make the chars rely on dm guidance, instead of their own.

But since we're not getting anywhere, and Axon made good points, i'll wait until someone in authority response to her question before hijacking this thread further.

garrykasparov · Post by **garrykasparov** » Sat May 22, 2004 5:15 pm

I believe that the stigma attached to PvP will wear away with time. Several people will leave and miss out, unfortunately -- but that is to be expected when a primarily PvM server becomes PvP.

As regards your experience with being called out by other players, I would have to agree that something personal may be going on. I have abided by the simple rule that DD posted (no killing in Avendell and no killing effortless players) and the worst I have received are a few misguided souls telling me I was killing an effortless opponent (see below) and a few "You are an a-hole, blah-blah" comments.

I cannot agree with the assessment of the mage/non mage balance, as I have found the situation to be otherwise in my experience. Battle clerics may still be a bit overpowered, yes -- but then I guarantee most any tank that meets a battle cleric will be eviscerated just as handily as a mage would be.

Finally, a quick game mechanics note that has some applicability to PvP situations I've been in: because I show up as impossible to someone does not mean he/she shows up as effortless to me. Some people seem to forget that the impossible rating stands for a difference of 5 levels +, while effortless stands for 6 levels + discrepancy.

BaconStrip · Post by **BaconStrip** » Sat May 22, 2004 5:35 pm

garrykasparov wrote:I believe that the stigma attached to PvP will wear away with time. Several people will leave and miss out, unfortunately -- but that is to be expected when a primarily PvM server becomes PvP.

My viewpoint is one that is truly "new" as far as NS is concerned. I didn't play NS3 so I have no background whatsoever in this mod. I am someone who just wandered on to the server one day and I see a mod with unbelievable potential. But I have a feeling some of you are misconstruing my opinions on PvP. Do I want PvP, absolutely, which is the reason I'm still here. Faction based PvP is a great idea, but I don't want an abusive PvP system that allows veterans to prey on newbies. Andrews idea of a level 10 and under area is great, and should definitely be implemented in the final build, but for now, IMO, even a beta needs some sort of order, and right now, there is none.

What would be nice is if the DEVs could somehow hide our difficulty ratings to each other. I think that would lead to some interesting fights and see how much RPing is really involved in griefing. Would Andrew really start flinging spells or arrows at someone if his victims level range was a total mystery? Maybe, but most griefers probably wouldn't.

garrykasparov · Post by **garrykasparov** » Sat May 22, 2004 5:38 pm

The problem with hiding levels is that I don't really think they can be removed from the initial player log-in view (in which levels are detailed in their entirety). In fact, doing so would remove the only protection lowbies have from higher level players -- as there would be no way to tell who was effortless to you in game, and people could simply log out to see who was weak, and go ice those players.

dond · Post by **dond** » Sat May 22, 2004 5:39 pm

there's a difference between 'defending' your faction in faction terrority(ie your town) and chasing down lvl 5's with your lvl 20+ when they're hunting formians...