debate on PvP and PvM

[nagaguard]

I am starting this new thread to get people out of the fighter AC thread (http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... &t=1003691). It was starting to get off topic.

It seems to me that this argument stems from Ryddwillow's dislike toward high-end bosses and how they contribute to steering people away from PvP in search of high-end loot. Based on the replies I've seen to that argument, I believe there is almost no one here who feels that there is not enough PvP in NS4. If we want to get a sense of the opinion climate, we should create a poll that addresses this issue.

Complain,complain, complain is all you are and when there is constructive criticism

Isn't that what you're doing right now? The level of hostility in that last post is bordering trolldom. Ryddwillow seems to have a very strong opinion of what PvP and PvM SHOULD be and has defined it very clearly in his arguments. However, my opinion is that there is no clear definition of what encompasses a PvP server or a PvM server. NS4 is a "do what you like" server.
-"Can we PvP?"
-Yes, and there are incentives in place.
-Cool, I'll PvP on and off.
-"Can we PvM?"
-Yes, and there are incentives in place.
-Cool, I'll PvM on and off.

Like I already stated in the thread "When are we going to lower the Boss's" (http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... &t=1003702), I don't think high-end bosses are detrimental to PvP. The 20ppl party only happens once a week. The fact that so many people look forward to this event should tell you something about the overall opinion of NS4 users. We like it. We like the challenge. We enjoy working with off-faction players just as much as we like fighting against them the other days of the week.

I've been asked on three different occasions by new comers about the PvP climate of NS4. Each time I told them "we usually fight for relic control, but once a week we band together to tackle a high-end dungeon". In each case the new comer was content with the answer.

May as well post here what I posted in the other thread since it's a bit more detailed:

I like where the game stands right now. The whole "server party 20 people in group" thing only happens one night a week. All other times relics are going back and forth. This is satisfactory in my opinion. During 4 hours out of the whole week we get to relax and shoot-the-s**t with old timers from all the other factions. This gives everyone, new and old, a chance to socialize with off-faction PvPers who would otherwise be hostile the other days of the week. Though this is a PvP server, the "do what u like, but no griefing" rules incentivizes players of all inclinations. The fact that we are free to choose to PvP or PvM without some directive pushing us toward one over the other is a huge bonus for people who are still making up their mind on staying or leaving.

High end gear should be reserved for a well coordinated party with premeditation, not something you can just pound out with a spontaneous lfp. If you take this away, you do away with a PvM aspect that many of us have been enjoying over the past few years.

If you want to create attractive incentives for new players, then lowering the annoyances of 1-35 leveling and gear acquisition would be a good start. But the big baddies (G1, Tu'Narath bosses, Celestia bosses, etc), those guys are just fine where they are. There are many non-epic areas that are begging for CR revamps and tweaks (ie the elemental planes). Areas such as those, where bosses hold level 30 gear, could be tweaked in xp, difficulty, and overall "annoyance" factor of particular mobs reduced (ie earth guardian: mords, dispels, heals, all uncounterable) to encourage players to attempt the plane and boss encounters more often. I can't count how many times I've heard, "Acolyte, haha not worth the trouble" or "Lord of the Flames, drop is gimmicky, and haha not worth the trouble" or "skip the guardians, don't want to keep rebuffing every five minutes".

As far as making more incentives for participating in PvP, yea we are due for some DM sponsored PvP events.

[Korr]

Its ok naga... youll learn to ignore willow soon (as everyone else does).

[Bargeld]

I don't think there is enough pvp. It's not because of epic high-end bosses though, it's because the playerbase has dwindled over time (the main directory/bioware server list dying started it, imo). Also, the 2 main allied groups who prefer to PVP (AORK and MASL) are in exact opposite timezones, so the only relic PVP occurs at like 4-6 AM/PM EST. Otherwise, it's just grabbing a monk and freely running relics.

Personally, I dislike PVM. I've already learned how all the AI's are scripted and don't really care about beating them. It's the ever-changing field of battle and situations of PVP that I am drawn to. The only reason I partake in Epic Wednesday is for the roll on the epic gear at the end (or maybe to help them if they are lacking a certain build that is needed, and usually bringing a clc/pm). I tend to play with those same players throughout the week anyway, so it's not a social thing for me, although I admit it can be for other, newer players, or for those who prefer PVM.

[weyn]

Also, the 2 main allied groups who prefer to PVP (AORK and MASL) are in exact opposite timezones, so the only relic PVP occurs at like 4-6 AM/PM EST. Otherwise, it's just grabbing a monk and freely running relics.

[Ryddwillow]

It seems to me that this argument stems from Ryddwillow's dislike toward high-end bosses and how they contribute to steering people away from PvP in search of high-end loot. Based on the replies I've seen to that argument, I believe there is almost no one here who feels that there is not enough PvP in NS4. If we want to get a sense of the opinion climate, we should create a poll that addresses this issue

.

The high end bosses are alright but is it takes 20 ppl to kill a boss and hardly get any gear then the whole thing is a waste. When one ponders upon this game and see's it listed as a PVP server they come and build and yes go thru the struggles to obtain better gear as we all did. Meanwhile we are struggling to make new contacts and being involved in a pking event. when we get to level 30 we are understanding from shouts that it takes alot of ppl to obtain high level gear? What! So we struggle and struggle to obtain thy mighty gear and then when we kill the boss, nothing drops, somethings drop, or most drops. roll of the die and then we have to roll a die to see where we get a chance to obtain something! Great. I am number 18, it is garbage, I get frustrated and leave after 5 months of trying because I work fulltime.

I played on PVM servers and it took a lot less to acquire high end loot to achieve one's goals.

I played on cheeseball server were it took a small group to pk a high level boss and still pvp.

Guilds are here for a reason and with 2 cities are neutral faction that with a party of 5 should be able to fight boss's, that is why guilds are here, not to say I am in every guild on the server. Guilds were meant to PK, loot, and defend. I always remembered DM Metis spouting on shouts no more then 5 in a party, then DM Chase stopping server for lag, because we, that are not in party suffer.

Isn't that what you're doing right now? The level of hostility in that last post is bordering trolldom. Ryddwillow seems to have a very strong opinion of what PvP and PvM SHOULD be and has defined it very clearly in his arguments. However, my opinion is that there is no clear definition of what encompasses a PvP server or a PvM server. NS4 is a "do what you like" server.
-"Can we PvP?"
-Yes, and there are incentives in place.
-Cool, I'll PvP on and off.
-"Can we PvM?"
-Yes, and there are incentives in place.
-Cool, I'll PvM on and off.

Like I already stated in the thread "When are we going to lower the Boss's" (viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1003702), I don't think high-end bosses are detrimental to PvP. The 20ppl party only happens once a week. The fact that so many people look forward to this event should tell you something about the overall opinion of NS4 users. We like it. We like the challenge. We enjoy working with off-faction players just as much as we like fighting against them the other days of the week.

I've been asked on three different occasions by new comers about the PvP climate of NS4. Each time I told them "we usually fight for relic control, but once a week we band together to tackle a high-end dungeon". In each case the new comer was content with the answer.

The fact that so many people look forward to this event should tell you something about the overall opinion of NS4 users. We like it. We like the challenge.

Is this tea and crumpet hour? really? If you like it so be it then for you it is PVM server with friends. it is simple as that. Relics? Heck, when I ran DD, we in SL were missing a guild so ppl came in and after 2 weeks they stated we do not pvp. I said "what!" I pked the guild leader and all the followers and they left, heh. PVP server folks.

Do what you must and enjoy.

Also, the 2 main allied groups who prefer to PVP (AORK and MASL) are in exact opposite timezones, so the only relic PVP occurs at like 4-6 AM/PM EST. Otherwise, it's just grabbing a monk and freely running relics.

Pretty much irrelevant, ask anybody that has been around along time and it happens


Apparently my thread was hijacked but as you must to support YOUR cause and change my post. Kudo's for you.

[mining]

Two main points:

1) You can get near end game gear with like 5 people. Tunarath (and Abyss/Celestia, to a certain degree) are designed to require 10+ people to handle - and as a consequence, contain much more in the way of luxury items, and much less in the way of "everybody needs a Kultach helm/rings, everybody would like a Lloth ring (6 man it ) etc.

2) Go surprise attack a PVM party if you really want, lol, you just won't be invited back.

[Bargeld]

Yeah, the tides ebb. That's the current situation of PVP at the moment. At the moment. If my statement is irrelivant, than so is your entire current position on PVP vs PVM. Things have changed from how they used to be and they will change again in the future.

I'll tell ya tho... tonights epic run to kill 3 bosses in the gith plane, 15 players in group, and even the on the 20th turn, players were still picking up epic gith gear and not IA. You may not like it, but those who participated enjoyed it very much and the payout was damn good for every single player, even those who rolled 8 or 9 for loot. Just imagine what the first 4 players grabbed The server isn't here to cater to you or your nostalgia, it's here by the grace of all the admins and host(s) for the current playerbase to enjoy. If you don't like that, I think you know how to uninstall the game.

[Korr]

Yeah, the tides ebb. That's the current situation of PVP at the moment. At the moment. If my statement is irrelivant, than so is your entire current position on PVP vs PVM. Things have changed from how they used to be and they will change again in the future.

I'll tell ya tho... tonights epic run to kill 3 bosses in the gith plane, 15 players in group, and even the on the 20th turn, players were still picking up epic gith gear and not IA. You may not like it, but those who participated enjoyed it very much and the payout was damn good for every single player, even those who rolled 8 or 9 for loot. Just imagine what the first 4 players grabbed The server isn't here to cater to you or your nostalgia, it's here by the grace of all the admins and host(s) for the current playerbase to enjoy. If you don't like that, I think you know how to uninstall the game.

If only this were the exception and not the rule. From my runs in Tuna it is MORE the rule, but overall it sucks to roll through the biggest areas of DE for example and come out with boss drops + IA galore.

It would be nice if the loot cutout IA for the highest planes. I would rather see nothing than IA

[mining]

Tuna throws out loot like a pinata because it also treats you like a pinata .

Also, we slightly bumped drop rates in a few planes a while back - you should except somewhat better results.

[Ryddwillow]

You can get near end game gear with like 5 people. Tunarath (and Abyss/Celestia, to a certain degree) are designed to require 10+ people to handle - and as a consequence, contain much more in the way of luxury items, and much less in the way of "everybody needs a Kultach helm/rings, everybody would like a Lloth ring (6 man it ) etc.

Maybe the gear made you a better player, but for me I was the better player and the gear just enhanced my abilities.



Sorry never got a Lloth ring but I still did my job.

[TheEdge]

Unless your awesome like me and just solo it

[Monkey]

For me the game was about working together as a team. Playing a role well in a party is the challenge, and you can build more toons and take on different roles when you get tired of the old ones.

Doing PvM well was fun, and part of that was deciding where to go and what to bring based on the party's level and needs.

Doing PvP well was often more dynamic. challenging and fun, but too often cheating, cheese and bad attitudes would make it much less fun. In the end, the unfun stuff drove me away. Better structure could greatly reduce the unfun, but I haven't seen the recognition or desire by the developers to get that done.

[Korr]

For me the game was about working together as a team. Playing a role well in a party is the challenge, and you can build more toons and take on different roles when you get tired of the old ones.

Doing PvM well was fun, and part of that was deciding where to go and what to bring based on the party's level and needs.

Doing PvP well was often more dynamic. challenging and fun, but too often cheating, cheese and bad attitudes would make it much less fun. In the end, the unfun stuff drove me away. Better structure could greatly reduce the unfun, but I haven't seen the recognition or desire by the developers to get that done.

No offense intended monkey, but a lot of times you were a party killer... as much as you would try to do parties.

If there was something that didnt go your way you would ditch party, even mid-run. Sometimes even after an hour of organizing you would then ditch for whatever reason and it would ruin others wanting to go.


Just remember its a game, if you werent having fun no one blames you for leaving. Trying to find fun where you can is a part of the challenge.

[Ryddwillow]

For me the game was about working together as a team. Playing a role well in a party is the challenge, and you can build more toons and take on different roles when you get tired of the old ones.

Doing PvM well was fun, and part of that was deciding where to go and what to bring based on the party's level and needs.

Doing PvP well was often more dynamic. challenging and fun, but too often cheating, cheese and bad attitudes would make it much less fun. In the end, the unfun stuff drove me away. Better structure could greatly reduce the unfun, but I haven't seen the recognition or desire by the developers to get that done.

Server is PVP and I understand that you want play PVM and you go thru all the hoops to develop a 20 person party to achieve your goal and everyone else's fantasy goals. This is a PVP server. You do not or hardly PK, never was in your blood we get it. I have nothing against you. Guilds are a beautiful thing because we can get 4 or 5 members to achieve high level gear, back then. Now we need 20 plus ppl. Just to achieve one's goal. Think about it, you are putting 20 ppl together that are not like you or me. They and I see views of how everything should go, but no one is perfect right?

So do we need 20 plus toons to achieve goals?




And quit hijacking my post.

[mining]

You only need like 5 people to get most of the good gear in the game. 10 if you want to handle the really big stuff. 20 if you want to do it quickly, with suboptimal builds.