NS4 going PvM only?

[Bargeld]

That's the route i'm going to suggest to everyone if the ridiculousness doesn't get rectified.

The only PvP left nowadays is AORK vs MASL. TNC will fight a little bit, but they don't pvp for repeated raids or any extended period of time.

In the last 6 months and more of pvp, its just a numbers battle and AORK constantly multi logs. They have a +3 ab ac saves token, which is super OP for the min/max builds. They have the most class and race combos available and overall the PvP has just sunk to a completely new low, ending in antagonistic shouts from both sides and very few legitimate 'gfs'. The fights would be even numbers almost every time, except that the dual logging adds 3-5 in their favor every session. It's so bad that they park toons in our hidden tunnels after raiding 9vs5, so they can slow down any chasers.

If this isn't addressed, I'm seriously going to recommend a boycott of the server to all the players that I know. I will recommend that we login solely to promote AORK as an OP faction and suggest all players play there and we WILL turn this into a PvM server where AO always has the relics and there is no PvP because there will be no enemies with any PvP desires. After a couple weeks of that promotion, we will slip away from the server and move on to other servers or just give it up and move on in life. Maybe a different game, maybe other personal endeavours.

This has seriously gotten ridiculous and it has already caused a number of players to leave the server. I will organize the rest of us to do the same because it has completely lost it's challenge and fun at this point.

This doesn't need to be a poll (*cough mining's suggestion to me cough*), it needs to be a decision by the dms and devs. Change the job tokens, and change the commandments regarding multilogging in PvP immediately. We will submit screenshots to assist in supporting it. Otherwise, say bye-bye to an already dying server. I helped revive the factional PvP by joining and leading SL during a low point on the server years ago, and I will tear it down now. You already ran all of IO out of MA years ago to the point that the core players quit for good. Xal has left now. Hond has left (he was a great new addition to the playerbase here). Alka and I are on the brink at this point and have already talked about the upcoming new year. Others have thinned out due to natural attrition. I will make sure that you lose an entire factional alliance because, at this point, it's already right on that edge for many players, and I'll just push it that little bit it needs, unless it is addressed. Now. It's time to listen to your players.

[Monkey]

PvP is dying out pretty fast on NS4. Bargeld doesn't need to do anything special to kill it other than just not participate in it himself. It's up to the developers and DMs to save PvP if they feel it's worth their time.

The main problems as I see them:

1. Dual logging, hidden buffers and other exploits spoil the challenge and fun of PvP.
2. There is little to be gained by winning in PvP.
a. The relic bonus either won't last long or you won't be able to enjoy it because you'll have to defend against a super-buffed, multi-logged raiding force.
b. Relic resets can take away the bonus even if raiders don't come or you successfully defend.

I'll still support fellow TCNC faction members when they want to raid or defend, although I won't join KORR when he wants to raid with dual logged toons. I no longer instigate or encourage raids because there is so little to gain and it isn't likely to be much fun.

Developers and DMs need to come up with clear rules and policies if they feel it's worth saving PvP on NS4.
In my view:
1. Dual logging for PvP and buffing should be banned. Dual loggers should have their buffing toons de-leveled or deleted if caught by DMs.
2. Relics should be locked in place for 3 hours after reset. For one hour before reset special PvP rules should be in place, including the disabling of healing potions, healing kits and possibly other items and consumables.

I made similar suggestions several months ago, and when it was clear these changes weren't going to happen I left and explored other servers. I did find servers that were better designed for PvP or PvM, but what brought me back to NS4 was the people who play here. Unfortunately, the number of players who respect the game and play it well is shrinking while the number of exploiters (who I try to avoid) is on the rise.

[Defouraillator]

I have to say that I completely agree with (both) of you.
Above all dual logging is the main issue and since people who use it simply abuse and spoil all fun and fairness in pvp, it should be disabled. I don't care how difficult it is to handle, that is not the point.
No hate or whining, just looking for fair fights that seem to desert NS4 lately...

[Tazz]

Im still a noob considering how long most of you have been playing here but I agree completely.

It seems there is little pride amongst quite a few on the server where an outsider would see as comical but to someone just getting their feet wet here it is very discouraging, to say the least...

I have witnessed dual logging within every faction on the server during pvp however, AO is by far the worst in your face abuser. Knowing what I know now, there is little reason to chose any other faction on the server besides AO. Im not gonna go into all the pros/cons of the various factions but AO with that ridiculous token is near impossible to compete with 1 vs 1 - then throw in dual-logged mega buffers, dual logged spotters, dual logged raiders with a spotter/defender logged...

The numbers always seem to greatly favor AO/RK and yet they are by far the worst offenders of the dual logging pvp. On numerous occasions while MA/SL were defending against overwhelming numbers I would take a raider to AO/RK in hopes of thinning their assault numbers just to walk into toons dual logged as defenders.

I still enjoy the server for the most part but I find myself monitoring the server listings to see what other servers are consistantly populated as well as visiting some of the server websites.

Im not threatening to leave or anything but when a game starts to tick me off on a regular bases with issues that are obvious to most and are routinely shunned by devs/dms with things like lets just make it a fighter only server - or a flat out "No" Not cool at all

[Amoenotep]

could always be disabled completely..thats always an option we had in our back pockets

[Bargeld]

We discussed that on IRC, mining and lokey really wanted your input on that option. Basically the options were:

1) Switch multi logging off completely, then deal with the specific valid cases (PvM, roommates, family, etc) as they pop up. The majority of those could be dealt with in a short time period, I imagine.

2) Kinda an offshoot of #1, more just one way of dealing with the case-by-case... have the people who want to dual log apply for an exception. DM/dev discretion to grant it based on the reason, scenario, player(s) etc. More of a formal way of handling the cases rather than a behind the scenes way. I imagine that those exceptions could be documented somewhere on the forums here so everyone knew who they were and if they turned into abuse cases. And to make it easy to revoke later.

3) Just amend the commandments for use in PvP then weed out the offenders early on, which again should happen relatively quickly. This route seems to put more active monitoring on the dm/devs and players and may lead to ongoing issues with abuse cases later on. And longer research & response times.

The switch is the easy route: hate all dual loggers and make some of them feel mildly accommodated when they get an exception to the rule.

[$chase$]

the best option is to lock the relics period.. then we wouldnt have to worry about it

[Ogami]

Today 20:20 GMT0 dual logged counter raid better than words: today's pvp video
more lolz :
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2ey8bjo&s=6

[Ghostly]

1) Switch multi logging off completely, then deal with the specific valid cases (PvM, roommates, family, etc) as they pop up. The majority of those could be dealt with in a short time period, I imagine.

2) Kinda an offshoot of #1, more just one way of dealing with the case-by-case... have the people who want to dual log apply for an exception. DM/dev discretion to grant it based on the reason, scenario, player(s) etc. More of a formal way of handling the cases rather than a behind the scenes way. I imagine that those exceptions could be documented somewhere on the forums here so everyone knew who they were and if they turned into abuse cases. And to make it easy to revoke later.

3) Just amend the commandments for use in PvP then weed out the offenders early on, which again should happen relatively quickly. This route seems to put more active monitoring on the dm/devs and players and may lead to ongoing issues with abuse cases later on. And longer research & response times

The only way any of those ideas/suggestions would work is if the server was totally wiped, including all player accounts.

[Bargeld]

I'll let you guys decide what to do...

Make no changes and no wipe = population drop.
The players are fed up with the current state of PvP on the server.

Make no changes and wipe = population drop.
A wipe will make a lot of players leave. I'm sure you are all aware of this already.

Make a bunch of changes and wipe = population drop.
See above.

Make changes to listen to the players and no wipe = status quo.
It might actually bring a few players back. If some people leave due to multiboxing changes, then hopefully those players that return give you quality over quantity.

The options are grim at this point, and I understand the hesitance to wipe. I also understand the grim state of stun fist and multiboxing and factional balance. There is desire to offset the wipe by fixing those current things as well as adding new, big changes like spell DCs etc. in the hopes that people will give it a chance and be willing to try the new system.

That truth is that no amount of polls or conversations in game or IRC are going to tell you what the players will end up doing. When the time comes for whatever happens, people will do whatever they do.

What hasn't been mentioned at all is how happy the players are... seriously. Most everyone on the server continues to play cuz they have a lot of fun. They like their fights and PvM, and all around experience. So far, it's been fun enough for the players to not do anything drastic because of the few crapfests that keep occurring over a few specific things. Fix those couple things and then FIND a way to not require a wipe, but still add new things, and you will maintain a happy server with happy players.

[Monkey]

People are pretty good about following the Commandments of Neversummer. The easiest fix for the dual logging problem is to specifically ban it in PvP via a new commandment: "Thou shall not control or log in two or more characters at the same time if any of them will be participating in PvP."

To me it seems clear that dual logging violates the spirit of Commandments V and VI, but unless it's specifically stated there are many who will rationalize their dual logging behaviors:

"V - Thou shalt not relog any character to exact revenge on a lost PvP fight, whether higher or lower in level than your original character. In the case of defending your faction city, this will be allowed if you do not change the faction of your original character. Relogging a character is not allowed in order to raise fallen comrades if the area around the bodies is still in the midst of active PvP involving the same players that killed you or your party.

VI - Thou shalt not relog any character during a relic raid, except to relog a defender character, unless a period of 30 minutes has passed since your last attempt with your original character. This includes any character involved in the transportation of relics.

XIII - It is the spirit of all commandments which is enforced and not the strict letter. Players who habitually skirt the edge of legal behavior will have their bad attitudes taken into account; the gods of Aetheria have long memories and little patience for those who damage the community at large. "

I would support banning dual logging in PvM as well. It gives the exploiting players an unfair advantage over others in terms of leveling and gear farming. Some complain that it is hard to find parties, but dual logging and the unwillingness of many to search for parties is the main cause of the problem.

The big issues that would need to be addressed if dual logging is banned would be:
1. Making sure that friends and families can play together from the same location (not sure how technically difficult this is).
2. Enabling gear transfers via Anvil-like devices in Avendell, Frostdale and faction capitals (allowing gold, stacks, upgraded and unique transfers as well).

[dethonlegs]

I don't have a problem with dual logging in PVM, but in PVP it can be unfair. To list a few things:

* Covering more than one point on a map
* Buffing others to cover a builds weakness, ie. Spot (the most abused one), saves, etc.
* Using a spotter to direct your own toons
* Using a disabler (turn, stun, HB, rumble... the list goes on) to make your hitter effective

Most factions have a player that does one or more of the above, but when one faction does it all the time with most of their players then IMO it's no longer a game of skill between two people and the fun is gone.

Devs put an incredible amount of effort into ensuring that one build is never overpowered. The end result is a build that will always have one weakness that can be used as a counter. The irony to me is that staff allow dual logging in PVP which effectively negates this effort. This in turn makes the whole 'balanced' thing a joke.

IMO the answer is simple. Disallow dualing in PVP and ban those caught doing it. Given the use of public accounts and one toon, one account, then I think it's important for players to be able to
identify when someone is dualing. Perhaps a command to list players and the IP (or a proxy for the IP) from which they are connecting?

Also, if the above requires a wipe, then I'd still be for it. Perhaps it would give Devs the opportunity to resolve other long standing issues at the same time.

[Lokey]

I don't think there's anything in the proposed changes pile that requires a wipe. Wipe might be a bit easier, but it's not a huge deal.

tep and chase's job is to beat this metagaming BS out of you guys. They've failed. At least it's mostly guild tagged douches, getting rid of guilds would fix so much but I keep getting voted down on that.

There's not much chance we're going to be able to do what the pros at blizzard or beth or wherever can't r.e. multi-logging. People can volunteer to monitor/deal with, they'll lapse eventually. I'm not going to do it. I don't see an air-tight way to do it with code, even assuming we find someone with network protocol, injection and disassembly expertise to do some things we can't.

Like I said to Barg in irc, NS isn't specifically anything: make of it what you will within the no dickery rule. It'll be here as long as anyone is interested in serving.

So let me know what game you eventually find, I might want to play. You want the unpossible as far as I can see.

[Ajantis.]

I played some pvp last night.

I don't like to do it that often, it requires a lot of work to get relics, it takes a whole lot of time to retain relics, and as soon as you log, they'll be gone, or the relics will be reset soon enough anyway.

When I did, I got spam-disarmed transitioning toward the relic room and my prized kama in my off hand got dropped to the ground. I saw it, but couldn't transition back fast enough for the screen to be reset. Weapon lost.

I'm not all that interested in playing pvp again anytime soon. I don't want that kind of aggravation when I came to have fun.

[Lokey]

Oh right. Fix that exploit too mining or I quit