Spell DCs revamp sneak peek / pre-emptive feedback

[mining]

So, as part of the saves rework, spell DCs also need to be reworked.

In discussion, we thought of three main things which need adjusting:

• DCs grow rapidly from one to twenty one, then stagnate until forty.
• Low level spells are essentially shut out for DC casting, as a result of the PnP formula. Higher level spells already outperform low level spells, so this puts level 9s leaps and bounds in front of level 5s.
• Casters already have spell penetration and numerical effects tied to caster level, so we won't tie DC to caster level.

The end outcome of this is a provisional DC calculation: DC = 5 + {Character Level}/2 + {stat mod} + {Foci bonuses}
So, for a "traditional" DC 48 caster, you're looking at DC 54. Depending on how the saves bonus plays out, the "5 +" part could end up being +6 or +7 to the DC, to ensure that DC casters are ~the same as before in terms of balance.

There were also two or three things which were more "Oh, and this would be cool too":

• Wizards should probably get +1 DC for their specialised school.
• Druids might get +2 DC for being outside.
• Perhaps 40 caster gets another point of DC to enable DC casters to sacrifice discipline without sacrificing DC.

So, overall, we want to know what your first impressions are, and in particular anything that seems odd or possibly exploitable.

[mining]

Note: Stuff that's not saves related (i.e. bigbies 5-8) are staying the same, bigby 9's DC vs will is going to go up, but rest will remain much the same.

[Rufio]

Hmmm... so DC is not tied to spell level? There is a good chance that DC 54 will be overpowered when a caster has that on every single spell that they can slot instead of being stuck with only getting that DC on their 10ish level 9 slots with a small pool of useful spells. There are also some problematic persistent AoE spells that ignore spellcraft that would instantly become overpowered along with spammable mass instant AoE disables that would suddenly overpower many level 9 spells. I'm not opposed, but I wonder if the max dc should be more like 50-52 with some kind of consideration made for those AoE spells.

[mining]

Hmmm... so DC is not tied to spell level? There is a good chance that DC 54 will be overpowered when a caster has that on every single spell that they can slot instead of being stuck with only getting that DC on their 10ish level 9 slots with a small pool of useful spells. There are also some problematic persistent AoE spells that ignore spellcraft that would instantly become overpowered along with spammable mass instant AoE disables that would suddenly overpower many level 9 spells. I'm not opposed, but I wonder if the max dc should be more like 50-52 with some kind of consideration made for those AoE spells.

Some of the problematic AoEs which don't count spellcraft will become instant effects (and thus will count spellcraft). Generally speaking, spells of lower level will have lesser effects, and the exceptions will be looked at pretty closely.

And yes, that is an invitation to list off the spells that you speak of

[Bargeld]

Bards with lvl 6 max spells now become much more powerful from a caster standpoint. Also, what about scrolls?

This will also screw the non-ecl3 races without racial SR. I'm sure there will be a lot of mixes who cap their caster classes at 21 or 24 which are now very powerful vs anything without that SR. It's worth the gamble for the right class mix.

Initial impression: DC based on char lvl is bad. DC54 max is not so bad tho, as far as picking a max dc number out of a hat. But it does seem counter-intuative... why is DC not based on caster levels? Just because a bunch of other already stuff is?

Just some more spell specific thoughts:
Finger of death > Black Blade
Destruction > implode
Thunderclap is just plain ugly

[Koniption]

Is there a way to implement how the Heighten spell feat works in DDO where the DC of lower levels spells are bumped to the highest spell level that's opened up. i.e a level 1 spells gets and 8 dc pump if the caster has access to level 9 spells.

Another option is to link DC to tiers e.g. 5/10/15/20 ... 40 and the DC bumped +1 for each tier. so for example a lvl 20 caster has a +4 bump to DC on all spells and a level 40 +8 then add 1 for spell school specialization.

A level 40 caster would be 5 + spell level + ability modifier + spell focuses + tier + spell school specialization = 5 + 9 + 23 + 6 + 8 +1 = DC 52 max where as a level 20 caster would be 5 + 9 + 23 + 6 + 4 + 1 = DC 48 max and a level 10 caster (humor me!) would be 5 + 9 + 23 + 4 (+6 if another caster class has level 9 spells) + 2 + 1 = 44(46)

For a Bard this would mean 5 + 6 + 23 + 4 (+6 if another caster class has level 9 spells) + 8 + 0 = DC 46 (48)

[mining]

Re: Barg, spell-specific wise, BBoD is, what, conj? It's neat that it's a death spell out of conj . Who knows, it might go AoE, along with implode, or it might not - I definitely appreciate specific spells commentary, though, because there are a LOT of spells to get through (just plugging a new DC function we'd be using anyway is taking forever).

Re: Racial SR... eh, not quite convinced. You're spending a lot on int or cha or wis for your 20 level mix and hoping not to run into something with cleric/druid SR or racial SR.

Insofar as why not also caster level: Caster level is already so so so much. I don't want to pidgeonhole every caster into saying "Right, I'm a DC caster, I'm going 40 cler, or 40 wiz".

As far as numbers: At the moment we're looking at +7 to saves, so DC 54 max is equivalent to a loss of 1 DC compared to current, in exchange for more options at higher DCs.

Re: Koniption:

Heighten? Metamagic is iffy to deal with, I discussed a possible way a while ago, but it's really clunky and unintuitive.

I'm not quite convinced by the tiers system, but also not unconvinced - is there any strong reasoning *to* use it? The fundamental reasoning behind the CL/2 decision was to make spells follow a smoother power curve from 1-40 (which is actually slightly important, if not hugely) and to smoothly accommodate a non-level based system.

[Rufio]

And yes, that is an invitation to list off the spells that you speak of

The Mass AoE disables I can think of at the moment are Mass Charm, Fear, Great Thunderclap, Stonehold, Gust of Wind, Balagarn's iron horn, Hammer of the Gods, Vine Mine, Entangle... probably a bunch more not counting persistent AoEs

Of course some of those are better than others, but spamming some of those are going to be more productive than a single target disable like dominate monster or something.

Regarding some of bargeld's points, the DC system already has no connection to caster levels, so there is nothing stopping you from making an imploder with 21 cleric levels even with the current system. Even many damage spells max out at level 20, but spell resist keeps people from building igms blasters with 20 caster levels. I don't think the change would effect how people build casters really, we just might see some different spells being used, it is just addressing the lower level spells that might suddenly become overpowered that is important.

[mining]

I added an nAoE tag, which I'll fill in with (-1,1,10,100,1000,10000) according to:

Code: Select all

-1    : not AoE
1    : AoE damage spell
10   : Persistent AoE damage spell
100  : AoE CC spell
1000 : Persistent AoE CC spell
10000: AoE death spell

That'll give us easy recompense for generic "All AoE spells are too strong" issues.

[Snookz Eaglin]

DCs grow rapidly from one to twenty one, then stagnate until forty.

Why is this a problem? (Just curious)

I welcome a bump to spell dc though, but as other people mentioned giving all spell levels the same dc will do some weird stuff, don't want too see a dc 54 phantasmal killer (dc 56 for a pure wiz?). I fear certain cleric builds will become very mighty with dc 54 aswell.

Also, what about giving assassin a bump to necro spell dc? It would give sins more options in types of builds (35wiz/5sin) and still keeping the flavor of the class.

Edit: I really like the "oh, and this would be cool too" suggestions.

[Lokey]

It varies. PnP has a much broader spell selection and heighten if you really want it, but nwn arcane or druid books hurt a bit for high dc spell variety (granted you're probably better off going with the hit die less than my caster level = screwed lines of spells in PnP, CL can be boosted a bunch of ways). Cler's got evo every save (reflex one doesn't kill) at top level, including 7 and 8 you get a couple more options. Not much in the way of 7,8,9 arcane is going to be better than meta-magic lower level spells, not enough variety.

I'm not too enamored with using hit die, but there needs to be something to introduce some kind of power-gain curve for spell dcs.

[mining]

DCs grow rapidly from one to twenty one, then stagnate until forty.

Why is this a problem? (Just curious)

I welcome a bump to spell dc though, but as other people mentioned giving all spell levels the same dc will do some weird stuff, don't want too see a dc 54 phantasmal killer (dc 56 for a pure wiz?). I fear certain cleric builds will become very mighty with dc 54 aswell.

Also, what about giving assassin a bump to necro spell dc? It would give sins more options in types of builds (35wiz/5sin) and still keeping the flavor of the class.

Edit: I really like the "oh, and this would be cool too" suggestions.

One of the reason's that's a "problem" is that it means that planes need to be balanced for the abuse case of a DC caster, and are thus pretty much impenetrable to a lot of other builds at that level.

It is not a huge problem, but it is one that's nice to have smoothed out.

Re: Other spells becoming OP; there's a few specific circumstances I'm concerned about in a big way (Cloud of Bewilderment, Stinking Cloud), but other than that, the main thing that changes is if you pick a focus, you'll have options to assault varying saves. The overall DC bump, recall, is {with current numbers for the saves revamp} actually a decrease in effective DC by 1 in comparison to how it is at the moment.

[Shadowalker]

Once you tweak and balance it out, I like the idea a lot.

Aside from the over all change to the pvp landscape (always a plus in persistant play). It sounds like it will make leveling a casting toon from 21-40 about more than gear changes and the occasioanl epic milestone.

[Korr]

Drown if it gets the same bumps will be able to add another 4 to that max DC (rainy area water gen), not that rainy is predictable in anyway.

I think the change will make things interesting, I dont see anything innately wrong with it. I am curious why to slip-stream all the spells into the same DC?

instead of :
DC = 5 + {Character Level}/2 + {stat mod} + {Foci bonuses}

why not something like :
DC = Spell Level + (Char level/2) + stat + foci

or 1/2 spell level (rounded up).

[Korr]

Something I remember I was thinking about earlier :

Shifter spells, will they start to be calculated from character level or from shifter level still?