Solars and everything else

[hond]

Even if I agreed that good planar turners are better then evil ones which I don't there is no way all good clerics are better then all evil ones.

Right on top of my mind cleric/pm comes to mind as insanely strong character that ranks among best builds one can make in my opinion.

Make one, pvp with it, and you will see the toons have some really hard feeble points...It's a good toon, as the cleric monk paly/cots one, but way less flexible compare with those last one...
And only if 75 % of good clerics toon are better than evil one, will justify the pet is weaker, and i'm prolly sure that the % is higher ...so in my opinion Solar is good like this (finaly back to the topic)

Reflexion:
It's funny to see the absence of AO/RK aliance player, in this thread, but logical... As their good clerics will better rounded than TC one for same toon, and their evil one better than SL/MA, due to the tard token they have ... +3 AB (for mellee clerics) +3 AC (all toons) + 3 universal saves, allow them to build exact toon than oponent, but with better final stats, or just skip some saves feats, and add detections, where others can't...Excluding evidently the Cots and PM options disponible in TC/MA respectivly, their RDD cleric melee option is a good toon also...Also fight a DwD cleric really tough to put down...

[Alkapwn]

It's Official. MA is the best! Everyone else has no chance!!!

[hond]

You can still make a -10 turner with a start of +2 wisdom, instead of 2 cha. Shift 2 wisdom (feat or level ability) to charisma... because it starts 2 higher.


-7 would mean you have a 10 or 11 charisma mod, which means you didnt even take planar turning feat... which also means SR should apply as bonus to turn resistance. Which should mean you couldnt even turn players with SR... so congrats for rolling a basically completely useless toon??? Dont blame me for it.

Korr...post your -10 turner toon as i made...and then we can speak about it...
ALL is posible to made, that's for sure, but not all players can play 3 tards toons together for fight 1....so please stop saying nonsense, take 5 or 10 mins and scribe your -10 turner...
Then we will speak...

[Daltian]

Good clerics are the best. I build such a good toons it's unfair towards everyone else! But if balance demands it I can switch sides and go to MA/SL. Then you can buff up the solar!


P.S. I only have one cleric and it's silly azer, con based caster so what do I know. If Hond says MA/SL sucks it must be true.

[hond]

P.S. I only have one cleric and it's silly azer, con based caster so what do I know. If Hond says MA/SL sucks it must be true.

Inferior is not meaning that you suck...MA/SL clerics don't suck, but are less effective than same toon in oposite faction..

[Daltian]

on top of my head. Took me 5 min to figure the build out. Given the time and all the possible variations with diff spell schools/domains (notice I took destruction domain, just for the laughs in case one can turn constructs with it) I am sure this can be improved upon.

This one has -9 to ac/ab/saves and DC 42 implosion. DC 42 after -9 to saves is quite high, don't you think?

If I was building it I would most probably go for DC 42 Energy drain with necro focuses to totally cripple the enemy (and will save is often so much lower then fort).

Turn effect:

(Cha/2 + Turning Level/20)= 14/2 + 40/20 = 7 + 2 = 9

Implosion or energy drain DC = 10 + spell level + ability modifier + feat modifier = 10 + 9 + 17 + 6 = 42

Blackguard(5), Cleric(35), Water Genasi

STR: 12 (14)
DEX: 6
CON: 14 (16)
WIS: 17 (32)
INT: 10 (12)
CHA: 16 (26)

Water Genasi: (Quick to Master)
01: Cleric(1): Extend Spell, Spell Focus: Evocation, Domain Travel, Domain Destruction, (STR=14), (CON=16), (WIS=21), (INT=12), (CHA=20)
02: Cleric(2)
03: Cleric(3): Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
04: Cleric(4): WIS+1, (WIS=22)
05: Cleric(5)
06: Cleric(6): Power Attack
07: Cleric(7)
08: Cleric(8): WIS+1, (WIS=23)
09: Cleric(9): Cleave
10: Cleric(10)
11: Cleric(11)
12: Cleric(12): WIS+1, Quicken Spell, (WIS=24)
13: Cleric(13)
14: Cleric(14)
15: Cleric(15): Spell Penetration
16: Cleric(16): CHA+1, (CHA=21)
17: Blackguard(1)
18: Blackguard(2): Greater Spell Penetration, {Smite Good}
19: Blackguard(3)
20: Blackguard(4): CHA+1, (CHA=22)
21: Cleric(17): Epic Spell Focus: Evocation
22: Cleric(18)
23: Cleric(19)
24: Cleric(20): WIS+1, Great Wisdom I, (WIS=26)
25: Cleric(21)
26: Cleric(22)
27: Cleric(23): Great Wisdom II, Great Wisdom III, (WIS=28)
28: Cleric(24): CHA+1, (CHA=23)
29: Cleric(25)
30: Cleric(26): Great Wisdom IV, Automatic Quicken Spell I, (WIS=29)
31: Cleric(27)
32: Cleric(28): CHA+1, (CHA=24)
33: Cleric(29): Great Wisdom V, Automatic Quicken Spell II, (WIS=30)
34: Cleric(30)
35: Cleric(31)
36: Cleric(32): CHA+1, Great Wisdom VI, Automatic Quicken Spell III, (WIS=31), (CHA=25)
37: Cleric(33)
38: Cleric(34)
39: Blackguard(5): Great Wisdom VII, (WIS=32)
40: Cleric(35): CHA+1, Planar Turning, (CHA=26)

Concentration 43(46), Discipline 42(44), Hide 5(3), Spellcraft 33(34), Tumble 20(18)

[weasel423]

Neversummer is not the stock car racing version of RPG games, that would be WoW.

QFT!!! Well put, Elda! So give us our old new bigs back!

[Daltian]

BTW, how did you guys even make turners with -7 modifier when at 26 cha you get -9 and you need 25 cha to qualify for planar turning? Even if you went for odd number and left your cha at 25 you would still have -8 modifier.

[Daltian]

i'm still compare cleric 35 bg 5 turner with cleric 35 paly 5 (no divine shield)Protection domain version ,max spell craft, concentration discipline

Why would you want max spellcraft anyway? You can easely save 10 points by not investing 20 points in tumble but only 15 or going with less spellcraft.

Drow start char after subrace take: Str 12 ,Dext 10,Con 10, int 12, wis 16, Cha 18 (need str,int,wis,cha book +2, and con optional+ a delevel )
Gitz after subrace:Str 12, dext 10,con8,int 10,wis 18,cha16 (took power attack and cleave at creation, before str drop, need int ,wis,cha and Con)
Aasimar: Str 14/12, Dext 8,con10/12,int 10,wis 18,cha 18 (need Cha and Wis)

Pre epic feat: SF conjuration, Gsf conjuration, power attack, cleave, toughness, quicken spell, extend spell, SF disc(human version)
12 Epic feats: ESF conjuration, AQspell I,II and III, planar turning, Dragon knight, ESF disc, epic fort, epic reflex,armor skin, epic wisdom, blindfight

Seems like "only " 3 feats is not a big difference...
- It allow you take SF listen, vigilance and ESF listen (with a INT book)
- WF + imp critical + ewf (+3 AB ,+6 in AO and better range crit)
- lucky, great fort, great reflex (+3 fort/reflex +6 in AO)

As you can note, good aasimar version need 2 books less, than evil one, then will reach minimum of 25 wis/cha with leveling points.
At same time using 4 books, drow/gitz version will need 1 epic feat in order to reach the same score.
Here the importance of those 10 skill point, is that you need 14 int for drow and 12 for gitz, compare with 10 AAsimar...you will have 30 skills points left +15 tumble
Aasimar version can take power attack+divine shield at creation , or go 12str/con and take lucky, great fort

Also, why would you need disc focus? You can make cleric practically un KDable without it with proper gear.

Investing in spot doesn't seam to be wise either and blind fighting is plain useless on this build.

Also, with BG level your saves should be good enough without taking all those save feats, at least not reflex one. Also, armor skin, really? On a cleric caster. Such a waste of feats. No wonder you don't have enogh feats to make a proper BG/cleric turner.

And going with conju. focuses and summon on evil turner is a waste IMO. Its definitelly not as good synergy as good turner and summon. You should use that save penalty in better way.

[Alkapwn]

(Cha/2 + Turning Level/20) ... I totally missed that. Was going off of old PT. Thats funny

[hond]

cleric water genasi whitout water domain?? you will drop destruction or travel domain??
Can't do that toon in MA, valid for SL...
DC 42 -9 is 51 Fort....who will you implode with that?? only SL/Ma toon but have to be your ally...
No disc, no epic disc, no detection, 50 fort...stunner will love you, disarmer, and ikders also...you will be floored by thunderclappers, eat all the traps of the world at full damages....at least i post a toon who can work with team mate around..and was just trying to show the difference between two toon from different side, and the impact of race/class access. Will never made that toon in real....
PD: i put the dragon knight for the thread name...and to show solar are weaker to compensate the caster is stronger...

[Daltian]

cleric water genasi whitout water domain?? you will drop destruction or travel domain??
Can't do that toon in MA, valid for SL...
DC 42 -9 is 51 Fort....who will you implode with that?? only SL/Ma toon but have to be your ally...
No disc, no epic disc, no detection, 50 fort...stunner will love you, disarmer, and ikders also...you will be floored by thunderclappers, eat all the traps of the world at full damages....at least i post a toon who can work with team mate around..and was just trying to show the difference between two toon from different side, and the impact of race/class access. Will never made that toon in real....
PD: i put the dragon knight for the thread name...and to show solar are weaker to compensate the caster is stronger...

I chose destruction for laughs and I said it, did you really need to bring that up and ask if I will drop destro or travel.

51 fort or make it 51 will with energy drain, as I said its matter of choice of spell focuses. Remember also that evo has earthquake which is reflex.

No skill focus disc or epic skill focus disc. You don't need them if you gear up properly. What do you care if in off chance people disarm you. Its not like you'll be using a good weapon on it.

Why would you want detection for? Hipsers aren't planar anyway. And good turners don't have detection either.

50 fort. I saw you complain about cots and palas having high fort. And thats what they have except for pala/cots. 50 fort is truly respectable.

You won't be floored by thunderclapers, its super rarelly used and TCNC can't even cast it.

Eat all the traps with full damage. Really, you bring that to the table?

You think this toon can't work with team mate? You must be delusional. Good turners work better with melee team mate, I must admit that but evil one complements a caster much better which fits the theme.

Anyway. I give up. I won't post here anymore.

[mining]

DC 42 -9 is 51 Fort....who will you implode with that?? only SL/Ma toon but have to be your ally...

I don't know, I've had a ton of success with my DC 48 imploder in the past, at least against SL toons

Anyway, if you don't appreciate how strong -9 AB/AC is by itself, you must think abilities such as taunt, curse song, bigby 5, etc. are pretty weak. Which is pretty bloody silly given that 9 AC alone is the difference between "I have 90 AC in IE, you can't hit me except on a 20" and "I have 81 AC in IE, you can hit me on an 11". And 9 AB is "I have 60ish AB in IE, I can still consistently hit stuff" to "I have 51 AB. I can't even hit a 70 AC str based divine shield toon"

Edit: For perspective, you could take evocation and use earthquake or conj and SoV and get pretty decent results on your evil turner in terms of flatfootedness.

[Rufio]

Anyway. I give up. I won't post here anymore.

Those who are unwilling to learn cannot be educated. I really doubt hond is doing himself any good with all that incoherent ranting anyways. I quit reading his posts when he stopped talking about summons, which was like 10 pages ago.

[Alkapwn]

I learned something