Solars and everything else

[hond]

good turner is superior to evil one for 2 things...
- good turner floor oponents
- evil turner with 25 cha 25 wis will make -7 (and no -10) AB/AC/save.
if you want more you have to sacrifice disc/saves/AC that a good turner toon don't need to...also a greater restore or running away from turner will part of the solution...

while once floored the only solution is the respawn....

At same time, good turner can make paly5cleric35, or pure paly, or pure cleric for disc skill access...wich mean 0 feat 0 skills points investisment.

in evil version you will go cleric 35 bg 5 with power attack and cleave feat (power attack will be used to divine shield) and 10 skills points (5 hide)...at this point you have same toon, less fear immunity and lay on hands for evil one...

Cleric have very few pts skills to invest..so if you want max disc/spell craft/concentration you need to start with +2 INT...if you decide to go sanctuary and no divine shield, good toon don't need 13 STR either.

On other side to daltian opinion, kd effect is not superior to malus effect... i'm totaly disagree with you...



and finaly you can build a Paly 5 CoT 15 monk 20 stunner with 65 AB /70 AC/ 60+ DC stun/60+ to all saves...You will NEVER find any mentions of crit immunity when i speak about that toon...

i just mention that the save minus due to evil turner don't affect it with instant death spells, nothing more...

I mentioned also the eye token at this point, because it's the perfect exemple of what your token do...making a non caster toon as a max spotter (+10 helm, +20 TS helm+ 20 token)...saying that toon is an easy target (like minning do) is just a bad joke, as that toon can be made with corner hide option, and escape from most hostile casters, hide and go stun them, or use Lay on hands if injured.

I test a lot of toons in a special module, and i was looking for a save toon...tested a CON/WIS/CHA toon, monk 16 BG 4 preepic (35 monk 5 BG final ), with preepic and epics saves feats, +2 CHA/CON/WIS books+ lucky feat...at final i was taking 53 fort 53 will...far away behind any expectative to found a toon" immune" to stun (60 fort) and to roar token (53 will), in SL...

I know i'm nub, but when i look the combat log and see a pure barb with 57 fort save in AB version, or some CoT with 65 fort save, speaking about some fantastics combo evil turner+ curse bard+ DC caster is just out of the reality. In fact evil turner will working nicely against SL toons, i have no doubts on it, but against NC/AO a KD effect will probably have a best impact in PvP, than the malus effect...

[mining]

If you KD a barb, the barb will just laugh at you for the 12 seconds they're KD'd, while -7 AB is going to make them completely useless in melee for 10 rounds.

If you KD a CoT, they're a githz, so not paladin, so evil turning will make them fail DC saves because the highest saves toons aren't even outsiders.



Also, big request here: Please please please please please use paragraphs. It makes your writing way easier to read and helps separate your ideas.

[hond]

If you KD a barb, the barb will just laugh at you for the 12 seconds they're KD'd, while -7 AB is going to make them completely useless in melee for 10 rounds.

If a mellee bash him during two rounds with +4 AB, i really doubt the barb will stand up...65 AB pure barb -7, still a 58 AB toon who can ROAR/gyth token me...

If you KD a CoT, they're a githz, so not paladin, so evil turning will make them fail DC saves because the highest saves toons aren't even outsiders.

it can be aasimar, and paly...

Considering a max curse bard -4 and a -7 turner (-11 total) + a DC 47 caster, you need a 57 fort toon and be immune to that combo...no need to be a Paly/CoT for that...high lvl CoT, or Cha paly will save that with no problems...Same as AO CON toons with tokens.
Considering a -4 song is very subjective, as you can have a song benefit at same time...wich mean a 53 fort toon will immune to that combo...

[hond]

Just some questions with bad intentions:
- Why a neutral aligned turner in MA, can't floor oponent, while ALL other neutral turner will floored oponent outsiders ??
If that not a real intention, to negate the KD effect to our alliance, it's look like it....
- What is the result of two turner from AO/RK with a neutral/good turner + evil turner ??
- Once turned, are you immune to all form of turn, or just from cleric who turned you ??
Wiki say ,that onced turn your immune to turn effect for 10 round, but not mentioned nothing if the turn effect is different, or from other cleric..

And a Reflexion:
If evil turn is good aswell as neutral/good one, why AO/RK are only using good turner in pvp, with a poor Solar, when they can use evil one + OP Baalor??

[Daltian]

while once floored the only solution is the respawn....

This is only true if turner is not alone. Most of the turners won't be able to kill anyone in 2 rounds. And if not alone, malus of 7 to saves is quite often sure death too. Won't work against pala/cots, but you shouldn't bring turner vs pala cots anyway since they are most probably drow anyway.

in evil version you will go cleric 35 bg 5 with power attack and cleave feat (power attack will be used to divine shield) and 10 skills points (5 hide)...at this point you have same toon, less fear immunity and lay on hands for evil one...

I don't see how lack of lay on hands is an issue for bleric35/bg5. It's not like it lacks healing. Also, I don't see how would a BG/Cleric turner fail fear save. It's definitely not a game changer.

Cleric have very few pts skills to invest..so if you want max disc/spell craft/concentration you need to start with +2 INT...if you decide to go sanctuary and no divine shield, good toon don't need 13 STR either.

All clerics have lack of skill points, those 10 skill points are hardly an issue. And you get great saves and divine shield with that investment. Yes pala/cleric will be different, but then again do we really wan't all builds to be the same.

and finaly you can build a Paly 5 CoT 15 monk 20 stunner with 65 AB /70 AC/ 60+ DC stun/60+ to all saves...You will NEVER find any mentions of crit immunity when i speak about that toon...

That build is horrible. 15 lvls of cot with low cha will give you such a short wrath it would be hardly usable among other issues. Its a build that's buildable but totally not worth making. Theoretical toons that are possible but never made should not be used as argument.

I mentioned also the eye token at this point, because it's the perfect exemple of what your token do...making a non caster toon as a max spotter (+10 helm, +20 TS helm+ 20 token)

You should keep in mind that TC and NC don't have many caster options to start with.

I know i'm nub, but when i look the combat log and see a pure barb with 57 fort save in AB version, or some CoT with 65 fort save, speaking about some fantastics combo evil turner+ curse bard+ DC caster is just out of the reality. In fact evil turner will working nicely against SL toons, i have no doubts on it, but against NC/AO a KD effect will probably have a best impact in PvP, than the malus effect...

I don't see how SL barb is worst then TC barb for saves. If anything SL can make githy barb which is awesome and TC/NC can't. But we aren't complaining about it.

[Snookz Eaglin]

You should keep in mind that TC and NC don't have many caster options to start with.

TNC: Cleric, Bard, Druid, Ranger, Paladin
MASL: Cleric, Bard, Mage

[Amoenotep]

if this thread was about solars/balors/slaad...why is it now about turners?

[Rufio]

because hond

[Rufio]

You should keep in mind that TC and NC don't have many caster options to start with.

TNC: Cleric, Bard, Druid, Ranger, Paladin
MASL: Cleric, Bard, Mage

I don't think ranger and paladin really count. Their spells are just good for minor buffs, and they have half caster levels for the purposes of dispel, so they aren't even very reliablle to begin with. And then druids hardly compare to mages or clerics for casting.

[Daltian]

You should keep in mind that TC and NC don't have many caster options to start with.

TNC: Cleric, Bard, Druid, Ranger, Paladin
MASL: Cleric, Bard, Mage

TNC: Cleric, Druic (useless as spotter, but for the sake of the argument I'll add it)
MASL: Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer

[Snookz Eaglin]

You should keep in mind that TC and NC don't have many caster options to start with.

TNC: Cleric, Bard, Druid, Ranger, Paladin
MASL: Cleric, Bard, Mage

TNC: Cleric, Druic (useless as spotter, but for the sake of the argument I'll add it)
MASL: Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer

I don't think ranger and paladin really count. Their spells are just good for minor buffs, and they have half caster levels for the purposes of dispel, so they aren't even very reliablle to begin with. And then druids hardly compare to mages or clerics for casting.

Was a bit of a joke, but they are casters by definition. They along with Druid and Cleric also need wis for spells which go well with spot.

I've had a hard time making wizards and sorcerers with really high spot, I've seen a few wis based mages, but they have a lot of soft spots.

[hond]

hond wrote:
while once floored the only solution is the respawn....


This is only true if turner is not alone. Most of the turners won't be able to kill anyone in 2 rounds. And if not alone, malus of 7 to saves is quite often sure death too. Won't work against pala/cots, but you shouldn't bring turner vs pala cots anyway since they are most probably drow anyway.

i don't see how an evil turner will kill a barb in 10 rounds either...guy will just run around with regeneration if damaged, and will gank same any pet (baalor or solar). and if not alone my afirmation will turn true, if not alone versus the evil turner, the malus will not avoid the barb to run from the other toon who is supose to kill him...

hond wrote:
in evil version you will go cleric 35 bg 5 with power attack and cleave feat (power attack will be used to divine shield) and 10 skills points (5 hide)...at this point you have same toon, less fear immunity and lay on hands for evil one...


I don't see how lack of lay on hands is an issue for bleric35/bg5. It's not like it lacks healing. Also, I don't see how would a BG/Cleric turner fail fear save. It's definitely not a game changer.

Here you focus of the end of what i say, making important something who's not...the importance here, is that 10 skill point will turn , to have to start with +2 INT, compared with good one, and i forget the race mention, Asimar will allow to bump Cha and Wis at same time, and human will give you 1 skill point more /lvls, so with 10 int, you can max spell craft, concentration and disc...and you don't have to take 13 Str, if you don't go divine shield..
What is my best option for evil one?? Drow...but..i need 13 Str (for BG ), 12 Int (+2 from race for 14 final)for max same feat as you, with the rest of points i have to max Wis and Cha, and my Con is 8. At this point i way ,far away from 25 Cha 25 Wis, than the good version...so yes fear immunity and lay on hands will not change a lot , but the stats characteristics, change a lot...
What does it mean ??In epic levels, evil version will have to invest lost of feats in epic Wis or Cha, while good version can max some saves, skills or focus and run with more HPs...so why complaining about the difference with the pet ??

All clerics have lack of skill points, those 10 skill points are hardly an issue. And you get great saves and divine shield with that investment. Yes pala/cleric will be different, but then again do we really wan't all builds to be the same.

Viewed like this seems skills points are free ...you need +2 INT for that skills points..and investisment is not only those 10 skills points, it's 2 more preepic feet (power attack and cleave)...

That build is horrible. 15 lvls of cot with low cha will give you such a short wrath it would be hardly usable among other issues. Its a build that's buildable but totally not worth making. Theoretical toons that are possible but never made should not be used as argument.

In case do you need more than 2 round to stun oponent and gank him with divines damages...and this toon already exist, so it's not theorical. The AB is only usefull to stun , once stunned you can gank someone with 45 AB...

hond wrote:
I mentioned also the eye token at this point, because it's the perfect exemple of what your token do...making a non caster toon as a max spotter (+10 helm, +20 TS helm+ 20 token)


You should keep in mind that TC and NC don't have many caster options to start with.

Same lame argumant as always...in case Sorc or wizard work with wisdom?
I'm speaking about a toon who need 20 wisdom 20 dext for stun...do you ever saw a stunner with wizard or Sorc in SL ?? AO can make Monk Sorc RDD...
Druid or clerics divination focused are a TC/NC option, who work very nice with 20 Wisdom, you have the doble options as we have (no druids)... But as you have that token, you don't have to bother, any toon with CoT, ranger or SD, is turned max spotter...Why the hell you come here with the lack of casters ???

I don't see how SL barb is worst then TC barb for saves. If anything SL can make githy barb which is awesome and TC/NC can't. But we aren't complaining about it.

if you read well, i was speaking about the impact of malus save vs NC (for paly, CoT and Pdk saves bumps) AND NC for tokens...Saying i will prefer to KD than save minus...i'm not complaining about our barb will inferior to AO ones(-3 AC/AB/saves), just that turning effect is just way less effective than a KD effect...
If i scribe : Life is [censored] great, you will accuse me to insult you ?? it's posible...as you only take the most insignificant of i try to explain, and make an oposite argument of it...It's prolly because NC have no Sorcs...

[Alkapwn]

Just out of curiosity. Does one become immune to evil turning if he is turned by good turner and vice versa?

no

Actually Yes, I read it wrong in a drunken stupor Mining corrected me further down

[Daltian]

Just out of curiosity. Does one become immune to evil turning if he is turned by good turner and vice versa?

no

Thanks, that's really interesting info. Very useful for epic runs.

hond wrote:
in evil version you will go cleric 35 bg 5 with power attack and cleave feat (power attack will be used to divine shield) and 10 skills points (5 hide)...at this point you have same toon, less fear immunity and lay on hands for evil one...


I don't see how lack of lay on hands is an issue for bleric35/bg5. It's not like it lacks healing. Also, I don't see how would a BG/Cleric turner fail fear save. It's definitely not a game changer.

Here you focus of the end of what i say, making important something who's not...the importance here, is that 10 skill point will turn , to have to start with +2 INT, compared with good one, and i forget the race mention, Asimar will allow to bump Cha and Wis at same time, and human will give you 1 skill point more /lvls, so with 10 int, you can max spell craft, concentration and disc...and you don't have to take 13 Str, if you don't go divine shield..
What is my best option for evil one?? Drow...but..i need 13 Str (for BG ), 12 Int (+2 from race for 14 final)for max same feat as you, with the rest of points i have to max Wis and Cha, and my Con is 8. At this point i way ,far away from 25 Cha 25 Wis, than the good version...so yes fear immunity and lay on hands will not change a lot , but the stats characteristics, change a lot...
What does it mean ??In epic levels, evil version will have to invest lost of feats in epic Wis or Cha, while good version can max some saves, skills or focus and run with more HPs...so why complaining about the difference with the pet ??

So basically, you are saying the balor summon should be so much stronger because a niche MA turner build needs 2 more feats and 10 skill points then a niche NC turner build. Did I understand you right?

[mining]

Just out of curiosity. Does one become immune to evil turning if he is turned by good turner and vice versa?

no

Uh, yes. Yes it does.

- Why a neutral aligned turner in MA, can't floor oponent, while ALL other neutral turner will floored oponent outsiders ??

The better statement is: TCNC gets good turning, MASL get evil turning, AORK get both.

If evil turn is good aswell as neutral/good one, why AO/RK are only using good turner in pvp, with a poor Solar, when they can use evil one + OP Baalor??

Given the lack of some super OP builds out of AO, I feel secure in the answer being "Because they don't like making OP builds"