Solars and everything else

[mining]

And finaly our cleric turner don't floor...just give negative AB/AC/saves?? while good cleric turners floors bad...add it a bump AB solar and sanctuary option and you have the most OP toon/summon ever...no thanks

Meanwhile, addressing the absolute strongest of the two turning abilities as though it was a bad thing? Wait what? I'd so rather have a long, long duration -8 AB/AC/Saves than a short KD effect.

[Korr]

And finaly our cleric turner don't floor...just give negative AB/AC/saves?? while good cleric turners floors bad...add it a bump AB solar and sanctuary option and you have the most OP toon/summon ever...no thanks

Meanwhile, addressing the absolute strongest of the two turning abilities as though it was a bad thing? Wait what? I'd so rather have a long, long duration -8 AB/AC/Saves than a short KD effect.

-8 (possible 10 if you super focus) AB/AC/Saves is amazing... dont even say that its not. Both are amazing abilities.

In same chapter, i would like to have a class who give +10 AB/save and +3 attack with a fear DC of 50, and 60 % speed increase to all party...or a cleric imploder DC 48, autoquicken III....or a tank with 60 in all saves and who can floor all oponent party turning...or a smiter who can't be smited... I can't...let it be

Dont forget your MA prestige gives +8 AC for 2 fewer levels... oh AND a big nasty summon. And then theres the BG summon, which is also nasty to fight.
Your PM also gives crit (and sneak in turn) immunity, which provides stun immunity as well (not so arguably the most broken aspect of the server at the moment). That same character has access to 50% party speed increase, can get 48 DC spells himself (black blade is just like implode). Also that SAME toon can get AQ3.

Lets look @ more evil? Blackguard CAN get that 60 in all saves as a tank which can remove 8-10 AC, AB, and Saves to enemy parties.

Wow... not looking so unbalanced anymore is it? PM not have enough perks, dont build in MA!

[Lokey]

All hail our MA overlords!

[mining]

I think if you hash it in a certain way, you can make *anything* seem stronk or insanely weak.

Consider:

A) Shifters are terrible. They can't use any ranged attacks, no scroll use when shifted, and have a bug with universal saves and +fort/will/reflex. Further, they have weird sizing stuff.
B) Shifters are stupid OP. They can be immune to spells, any damage type they like, critical hits - you name it. They can use a scythe and a shield, and be str but have dexxer level AC!

[Bargeld]

Amen.

[Alkapwn]

I have a Good Cleric Summoner I was tearing through HoD with my Solar and it was taking down CR 37's no problem. I have seen alot of players that can't do that lol

[Alkapwn]

Meanwhile, addressing the absolute strongest of the two turning abilities as though it was a bad thing? Wait what? I'd so rather have a long, long duration -8 AB/AC/Saves than a short KD effect.

-8 (possible 10 if you super focus) AB/AC/Saves is amazing... dont even say that its not. Both are amazing abilities.

Your Good Planar turner is just effective with 18 charisma and 25+wis as 38cha just a bit more divine dmg and -20+ac and 0ab for 3 rds not to mention immobile Very very good for the glass type cleric thats able to planar turn or the other amazing good planar turners which I wont get into.
Your Evil Planar turner must sink Cha like crazy to have that little bit more edge. And i know from experience a 70ab outsider rolling in on you in pvp is not really gonna be fazed by =8ab against yer 69ish ac cleric planar turning him. Or the sd thats been hounding you is not even gonna flinch that he got "planar turned"
I have both Good an Evil Planar Turners, Evil can be alittle more useful in PvM at times on huge ac tanks, ripping down saves for instakills and stuff like that.You'd be surprised what you can implode with an Evil Planar turner and a Curse Bard

But all in all for PvP Good Planar turning is far more superior . I've fought with and against both types many many times Even before the Redux which made it impossible to ever save from turning.

IMO Chamod/10 should be added to Outsiders Character level vs turning just as a the Turners is as well as any bonuses from domains and such

Your PM also gives crit (and sneak in turn) immunity, which provides stun immunity as well (not so arguably the most broken aspect of the server at the moment). That same character has access to 50% party speed increase, can get 48 DC spells himself (black blade is just like implode). Also that SAME toon can get AQ3.

Lets look @ more evil? Blackguard CAN get that 60 in all saves as a tank which can remove 8-10 AC, AB, and Saves to enemy parties.

Well so many things wrong with this where to start...
So PM being the most dispelable caster and smallest duration of 'Party speed increase' It's laughable to even mention. I can't even run from Angmar dragon to Gargoroth in 20rds
48dc BBD's eh there's this little thing called Spell Resistance. Surprisingly enough over 90% of toons have! I wonder why
AQ3 thank god for that cause once i get dispelled i'll need to rebuff as fast as i can. Oh wait a minute my face is full of dirt and there is an axe in my brain!!!?!?
BG with 60saves, I'm sure that's terrifying, Why don't we nebs and cripple him and watch how awesome his saves are at keeping him alive. Poor little feller, too bad he couldn't lift that weapon and if he could somehow maybe he could hit a cleric or mage or something but... probably not
Yep MA is awesome , We love our defensive toons just cause we love to watch ourselves die that much slower to other factions amazingly offensive toons

Don't get me wrong I really do love playing SL/MA we're the underdog Evil faction. We have to fight that much harder to earn our victories and that is a great reward.

Join MA where we have a mop and bloodbucket waiting for you
or Join SL where we just cover up the blood with darkness

[hond]

Meanwhile, addressing the absolute strongest of the two turning abilities as though it was a bad thing? Wait what? I'd so rather have a long, long duration -8 AB/AC/Saves than a short KD effect.

That's why your a dev and i'm a player...on a paper -8 sound teribly strong..but you still, fighting, you can run, still casting, using tokens...once floored , in middle/high number pvp, you just dead...on floor you loose dext and tumble AC and oponent get +4 to hit you (wich mean more than -8 AC)...on floor you can't do absolutly NOTHING (wich mean your AB is 0), just looking oponents ganking you to death...
A good cleric turned will have -8AB/AC/save but still healing , restoring, anf if sanct, those malus are just comical for him...I'm not saying that evil turner are dumb, but i will prefer floor my oponents and pick, the most dangerous of them to rip him...a good cleric turned will cast greater restore, a evil cleric will just look, what decide the oponents.
But this is not the thread subject...
Solars have their spot bugged, and can follow my SD when only max spot players can detect me (listeners apart)...
AC gain by DEX buffs will max 2 in all of case (a max cat will give +5 and no +6) . An empower can give +3 AC , but probability to get less are higher...
Not saying here Solars are better than Baalors...Just saying that they differents and their use in pvp will not as primary tank, but they can chase hiders, and their averages damages vs low AC tanks is way superior than baalor one...
Solar is not a baalor, and with +8 AB, you turn Solars way superior to baalor, that's my point..
And Kor, stop giving me 1000 arguments about how MA is so powerfull, and start to give me arguments why SL is so dumb...if i'm a SL player, i want to have my oportunity against any oponents, whitout be forced to make only MA toon.
SL is existing as a proper faction, and no always MA players will be on, to balance how dumb SL is...Also if i'm defending SL, with a MA toon, i'm subject to venge log rule and can't switch toons as if i'm defending with SL one... In my opinion, they're is so many more things, to balance first, before solars, that i wrote, this thread was an exageration.
And i still trust it is...

[mining]

I'm not talking about what feels more "holy [censored] that was ridiculous, that good turner KD'd us and wrecked us" - I'm talking about what gives a larger numerical advantage. -8 AB alone is like the difference between taking 25 levels of fighter and 25 levels of CoT. -8 AC is like the difference between having tumble and not having it. -8 saves is a dip in paladin or BG.

In contrast, good turning isn't replicable by anything else - but it lets you take out high priority outsiders that are SDs, mages, clerics, or dexxer builds. I'd argue against anything outside of that subset, evil turning is far more potent - and it's arguably not much worse against dexxers if said dexxer survives the KD.

I kind of did do some analysis before remaking, and a swing of 16 AB/AC is kind of worth more than a 3 round KD if you only consider overall hits made and failed in an ~typical combat. Yeah, it's a bit blah in terms of good > evil in small battles and vice versa in big battles, but eh, ymmv.

/offtopic

Regarding solars: Solar is arguably too weak, I don't think I'd disagree based on what I've seen on both of them. I think +8 AB would be dumb, though - they have some advantages over Balor (i.e. crit range is pretty nice to have), but equally - when balor is so much better at actually landing hits (8 AB is a ton. Think of a 28 WM vs a 7 WM, and add 2 more) - perhaps there needs to be a tiny bit of a push up to Solar. I'll look into it >at some stage> .

[Bargeld]

Just to share an experience from last night, which I overcame the second time around.

My MA PM cleric vs a good planar turner... Planar turner knows I will heal, waits till I have 1/2 - 2/3 HP, floors me. AQ sunbeams for 90 damage x4 then a greater ruin for 225. Dead. That was 1v1.

Second time around, I didnt allow myself to get to 66% HP. They tried the same combo and I survived cuz I saved vs ruin. Then they died.

[hond]

The fact is good clerics turner are better than evil one...with 18 Cha, 25 wis, good turner with floor same. you don't need to bump more Cha. So you can take other feats in order to balance better your toon...For exemple a maxed dragon knight...try to feat that with an evil turner. Take 2 cleric turner ,a good and a evil and make duel...who will win ??
Good clerics are already better than evil one, as they can multiclass with paly for save/armor prf/ weapon prof with no feat/skill investisment and on top of that using a prestige class, on other side cleric BG will have to spent 5 in hide (10 skills pts), and take cleave (useless feat with no melee toon), and will not pick any prestige class more...
Subrace access compared good vs evil, good cleric win again...
Why solar have to be balanced with baalor, if in same time evil clerics are not balanced with good one ??

[hond]

I'm not talking about what feels more "holy [censored] that was ridiculous, that good turner KD'd us and wrecked us" - I'm talking about what gives a larger numerical advantage. -8 AB alone is like the difference between taking 25 levels of fighter and 25 levels of CoT. -8 AC is like the difference between having tumble and not having it. -8 saves is a dip in paladin or BG.

Why not make the turn same for each side?? all floored or all reduce AB/AC/saves...and problem solved...
And finaly it remember me the day i was trying to explain why AO token was hax OP token, saying that +3 AB was 6 epic STR, +3 AC was 6 great DEXT and 3 to all saves was like 3 epic saves feats...you answerd me that i was redundant...
Can you put here the effect of beeing floored and compared it with -8 AC...i prefer to stay on my leg with -8 AC than loosing , 8 from tumble, dext bonus to AC, and give +4 to oponent to hit me...just saying.
The larger numerical advantage is pure theorical BS...in pvp foor=death

[Daral0085]

So PM being the most dispelable caster

Correction: PM counts as half-levels towards dispel resistance. Therefore a 30/10 caster split has 35 dispel resistance which never fails against an unfocused greater dispel. Even a 25/5/10 caster has 30 effective dispel resistance, which means you lose 25% of your buffs per unfocused greater dispel. Sure, half-levels are less than full levels, but most of our cleric or druid casters multi-class with things that don't even give you dispel resistance (cot, bard, whatever). I suppose we could make a bard caster! (cue laughter)

48dc BBD's eh there's this little thing called Spell Resistance. Surprisingly enough over 90% of toons have! I wonder why

You also get mord. I have no idea why you're complaining about this when clerics have literally nothing to reduce SR. We have to multi-class bard or rogue in order to even scroll cast mord, and it's not possible to do that on a DC 48 AQ imploder build. The fact that you would complain about SR on a wiz/sorc build is baffling to me.

[Lokey]

they can multiclass with paly for...armor prf

Patch your game then clear out your override folder. Not sure what can be giving you this bug, but we're not forgiving of non-standard game mechanics being used.

[Daltian]

I am shocked to see people want KD turn over AC/AB/saves penalty one. I would gladly take the evil turning over the good any day. One day someone starts using evil turning properly in pvp there will be whining about it being too powerful. Good thing no one started using it yet.