Assassin Love

[Bargeld]

Losing the standard DA is a hard hit to the class. With it being the exclusive PRC of SL, it's going to need more than an 'average' ability to make up for it.

Keeping with the fort reduction theme, try to imagine playing out that battle in order to drop an enemy's fort... Assuming monk progression and 48 ab, you might get 3 DAs off then run around a corner to try again. The sin would have 28 class lvls, in order to calculate the effective values. That flurry might drop fort by 6 or by 3 lvls drained for say 28 rounds. Maybe try for another flurry, depending on your assessment of the enemy, which should take at least 4 rounds min in order to attack again between running to a corner, sneaking, then reaching your enemy again. In order to use the vial at this point, you would need to run, sneak, then apply vial (which breaks stealth), then hide and start your assault. Again, the vial attack still has the current restrictions for an eligible attack. Trying to drop a target by 28 fort (the suggested max in this case) is really quite unrealistic to actually do. But if you are up against a cot with the proposed new fort saves, 10 higher, then you may need to actually repeat those flurries 4 times before attempting a vial attack.

In mixed company with other dc based fort saves, i admit there might be some op issues. But again, we are losing an ability that currently means guaranteed death, albeit not instantly. Losing para really is a big deal.

[Daltian]

Lowering fort saves like that definitely sounds OP. There are way too many ways I can think of in a minute to exploit that. Balancing it with other abilities would be a nightmare. And saying that you want an ability that can even lower CoT saves to kill it with fort based abilities is a bit silly.
You don't really expect to be able to kill every build with one class/ class combo.
CoT signiture ability is good saves and to try to kill it with assassin shouldn't be good idea.
You don't attack PM with a stunner same as you don't attack CoT with an assasin.

[hond]

first you can play a unique prestige class who can kill all SL toons in 2 hit max (smite) but SL assassin Can't kill your CoT, and nothing with high spot, 52 fort +, or any smart player, who know you are playing an assassin...which mean that you run with 29 or 30 class assassin (lower , DC will even worst),who have sad AB,middle AC, and crapy saves and you can only beat 20% of the toons you face...at the same time you face, tard build smiter who will kill alone, the 2 first SL toons they will cross...you have to consider that the assassin token is very very difficult to use, and if you fail your first attempt , forget it ...
That thread is named assassin love....and you have to consider that assassin are so dumb, that they really need love...a nice recently add is that 60% conceal at lvl 15, wich will help a lot to see some assassin class cross build...but again, i prefer run with only 50 % conceal + epic dodge (lvl 13 or 16 rogue) than having 60 % conceal and no epic dodge...
with the Saves change, assassin para attack will turn suck horible, that even the few toons you can paralyze now , will able to save...
RDD, CoT allow an incredible variety of strong and balanced toons, some shifters form will allow you to kill mostly toons they face in 1 vs 1 if well played ( the Azer fire beam is particulary tard OP vs any toon not fire immune) some DD toons with a cleric beside will take 30 mins to be killed.... why SL have to run with the most dumb Unique prestige class ever??
Our dumb city and tokens was not enough ???
PD: forget the horible race choice due too Evil alignement and the ALL party floored by turner

[Daltian]

First of all you don't know what save changes will look like, its should be total overhaul. Its silly to say it will make assassin worthless, it might as well make them OP.

Also, 60% concealment is huge. You were complaining about SL token and the fact it only gives 25% conceal and you agreed that it gives only 6.25% effective concealment in melee.

60% conceal gives 36% effective conceal which is 44% more misses then on improved invisibility. It is huge improvement. Won't even start about ranged attacks and touch attacks which become highly ineffective.

[hond]

that concealment is nice, agree...it will help me a lot to survive a bit more...but if class loose capicity of kill (wich is not so high), it turn class useless... the real threat of assassin class is not the instant death poison, but the para effect cause is DC is much higher, and only need a sneak attack with initiative....the duration of paralysis is totaly retard...but 1 round / level instead of 1 turn is same effect...you neutralyze a guy for a bit...or you have time to kill him... in ALL of cases it will cost you some time to kill ur oponent...2 hits hotcase smite stil way faster and ALL SL toons are target...toons who save stuns right now are totaly immune to that effect, same as some class, a simple FoM immune you to paralysis... Assassin class sound ultra OP, but still an alzeihmer class...so yes...you can run OP conceal, but assassin loose DC out of menzoduran, which mean assassins are mainly used in defence...you can survive more that's a fact, but you can't kill nothing...or prolly nothing...while you still alive, you see the raiders running out of ur cheese city...i hear that argument so many time , so this time i will use it...make an assassin and try to kill : a barb, a pure fighter Con , a mage Con, a RDD cross class, a RDD dragon, a druid dragon, a shifter, a spoter, a high listener ...toons who are usualy used in pvp, only sneaker are sensible to assassin, rest is a joke...

[hond]

Its silly to say it will make assassin worthless

they are already whorthless...

it might as well make them OP.

i don't see why a save increase can make them OP...explain a bit more your idea...

[Daltian]

it might as well make them OP.

i don't see why a save increase can make them OP...explain a bit more your idea...

1. They didn't do anything yet and you whine about it. At least let them do it before you complain.

2. They said they would change saves mechanics, to fix the fact stun is so op and everyone builds for fort. Changing mechanics means they would probably get everyone's fort up but buff fort spells and abilities to compensate. It would actually buff assassin. I don't really think you understood the point and keep complaining about it without trying to understand it first.

3. Please try to write in sentences. Use capital letters and full stops. Things you write are highly confusing and hard to read.

[mining]

Well, use paragraphs

My first thought on "Is 60% conceal ok to give assassins" was "13 rogue / 15 assassin / 12 fighter". I don't know, is that build good? I thought good, but not disgustingly OP. I suspect I'm right, purely based on the fact you're trading off a bunch of conceal for, say, HiPS or WM crit bullshit, but I think it'd be a pretty decent build.

[Daltian]

I think saves would be atrocious, but not sure. Too lazy to calculate.

[Korr]

assassin paralyze is ridiculous in length.

30 turns/level you dont even need to kill someone, just let it ride after that.

1 on 1 if you can pull a para its game over... without even a kill. Worse than stun in its effectiveness (once applied).

Though at the same time a 3 v 3 (sins vs anything) its FAR more difficult to pull off, which is where I think the real detriment lies. Everyone knows that if the sin is trying to get away you can focus attention elsewhere and be safe from the paralyze at least. It takes all 3 assassins to go hidden at once to be able to get that real fighting chance. Though something Im surprised I never saw was stunners running with assassins... 3 rounds of free chance at death attacks!

[Alkapwn]

I think its 1turn a level now. Or could be just mob rest bug. Para'd a room full of epic gobs they started coming out of para by the time i finished death attacking the last one. Pretty sure Pup reduced length a couple years back. Still any medicore spot toon with div focus is immune anyway nevermind the fact FoM is pretty much available to every build but pure barb. I have a 60dc assassin and havent had one complaint yet that it's overpowered. It's so easy to stop yourself from being death attacked only noobs and the completly oblivious will ever get caught with it.
So in a perfect situation yeah Death attack is awesome on paper but guess what, It happens about once in a blue moon. Although i'm glad we have them keeps alot of hipsr cheese toons out of SL.

[hond]

My first thought on "Is 60% conceal ok to give assassins" was "13 rogue / 15 assassin / 12 fighter". I don't know, is that build good?

you will get feared, each time you enter in sleeth and dragon have fear aura on...get plode/ black blade...you will get stunned by SoV, and will run with 55 ab and perhaps 65 AC /75 with improve expertise..get wiped by roar/gitz token even RK token can auto kd you ....also a +3 AB/AV/saves will make the toon more playable for sure...

[hond]

1. They didn't do anything yet and you whine about it. At least let them do it before you complain.

2. They said they would change saves mechanics, to fix the fact stun is so op and everyone builds for fort. Changing mechanics means they would probably get everyone's fort up but buff fort spells and abilities to compensate. It would actually buff assassin. I don't really think you understood the point and keep complaining about it without trying to understand it first.

The fact is ...if with actual save sistem assassin suck, i don't understand how the change can turn them OP....
For the record, assassin is dext/int base toon...so fort saves are already crappy, even with changes will turn them mediocre...at same time, class will loose the few Strengh it have now...The para DC....turn the class horible, and not just mediocre class it is...
No complain here, in fact i never made a Sin, because it's already a sad class... for make it interesting , you have to invest in INT, wich mean you have tons of feats points . If you play a CON toon you run good fort and good amount of HP, STR will give you AB and disc, Dext AC , flex and AB for dexters,Wisdom will give you AC (monks), AB (zen) and will saves...
Having INT in sin death/para formula, is just like a ROAR formula with wisdom in it, instead of CON ....just a non sense of Bioware...
Sins are mediocre hider, and the para/death effect is only usuable in hide mode...
We speak about the unique class of a faction, and if you compare with the rest, it's just comical...
Thread is named Assassin love, cause assassin suck ACTUALY...No need to wait and see ,what saves change will turn the class.. Its suck now, and will still suck after changes...

[mining]

Did you hear when I said we'd be rebalancing assassin death attack? Yes? No? Chips and gravy with 17 potatoes? By revamping saves and giving everyone free paralyze immunity we can add a custom scripted death attack.

Also, for the record, it's more like 76ish AC before IE and 60ish AB, with respectable saves because feats are cheap for builds with fighter and minimal gear pre-reqs.

[hond]

I don't know how you can get 76 AC before ie with a fighter/rogue /assassin...i get 76 AC With divine shield on fighter rogue Bg (whitout team buffs)...give me the trick...i'm so nub ...
For the record SL can't make assassin with human subrace like earth gen or gitzerai...